Nobody has a crystal ball and can fortell the future. However from what I see, we have a perfect storm brewing and it ain't pretty.Taxpayers-Hold on! you are about to go on the ride of your life!- No I'm not talking about some new ride a your favorite amusement park either.
Taxes are about to skyrocket for the next few years.
Lets take a look into the crystal ball and see what is going on right now to foretell of this horrible situation.
The ADT ( alliance of Derry taxpayers group), and three councilors who are heavily aligned with this group- Councilors Coyle, Fairbanks, and Carney are proposing an increase in Elderly Tax exemptions. Introduced at the last council meeting , a public hearing will be scheduled in January for this very topic.
First, I want to say that this is a political ploy and pandering to the elderly voters. Why do I say this? Simple, The group of councilors know that this discussion is taken up during budget time ( March) of every year. In fact this year it was mentioned by this councilor and fell on deaf ears. Where was the voice from these councilors then- No where! so now that election time is coming they are making their pandering obvious.
Now their proposal increases every single number in the elderly exemptions making it much easier for many more people to qualify. Take a look: On allowed income we go from $28k single and 35K married to 35K single and 45K married.
The allowed income assets now are 100K ( not counting primary home) and they propose to raise it to $200k
And the amount of value in their plans increases dramatically topping out at allowing a deduction of $200K if 80 or older.
Now, allow me to make a bold statement here:
I AM IN FAVOR OF ELDERLY EXEMPTIONS AND HAVE PUBLICLY SUPPORTED THEM.
however, the program is set up for people on fixed incomes and are in need! Say it again. ARE IN NEED.
Do you think that a couple making 44K a year income and have almost a quarter of a million dollars in the bank should get a tax break? Do you have 199K in the bank?
Now make sure you understand this statement because it is very important. When you give tax breaks to some groups- others pay the difference. That's called a tax shift. Overall taxes did not go down so the savings this group proposes will be borne to the others- Called a tax increase!
Now hear me out, I don't mind paying a little extra for someone who can't make it financially but I am opposed to paying lots extra for some who may have 200K in the bank.
I say keep the exemptions that we just increased 2 years ago- it works to help the truly needy elderly. The ADT and Coyle Fairbanks, Carney proposal is a pandering tax break that raises taxes on everyone else- families, low income people that are not elderly and 94% of the rest of us taxpayers.
Also- Coyle Fairbanks and Carney are spearheading a bike path proposal which we learn the taxpayers will be asked for between 80K-100K in the next upcoming budget.
Well I'm here to tell you that may be one of every three dollars allowed for next years increase of town side taxes. What happen to needs before wants. And on top of all of these shenanigans we can anticipate that we will have to make up for shortfall of state ed dollars to the tune of at least .80 cent tax increase before we even talk kindergarten, or Pinkerton academy's new freshman experiment.
Hold on! the perfect storm is coming. Please take notice! And let me be the first one to tell you to be prepared for very rough times coming unless we get back to being frugal and spending on our true needs and not "luxury items" and/or pandering for votes.
112 comments:
In a previous thread, Mr. Newell attempts to justify:
"A quick analysis of the voter population of Derry (a reasonable surrogate for the homeowner population) shows that 6.8% of them turn 65 in the next 5 years. If we can keep them here it is a big step toward increasing the total senior population."
Your logic is tragically flawed on a number of levels. Addressing the most glaring, your goal is to keep 6.8% people here with incentives. Since our population is and will be flat for the foreseeable future, if you succeed in your goal, FEWER NON-SENIORS WOULD BE PAYING FOR THE INCENTIVE IN YOUR ILL-CONCEIVED PLAN. THAT RESULTS IN A DRAMATIC TAX INCREASE.
Most directly, you failed to exploit potential kindergartners for political gain in the last election and you will fail to exploit our seniors this time.
Exploiting these groups of people is despicable politics.
PS: I also agree with a previous anonymous, that you need to show a precise accounting of the ramifications (tax increase to me)of your ploy that benefits only a selected few.
I am a single, 45 year old homeowner, with no children. I have lived here for 20 years. Since I am not a burden and have always paid my tax bill, I want a reduction if the elderly get it. even if well intentioned, thisarticle is not well thought out. Its a very slippery slope that the Council is embarking on. Why should so called elderly people be favored over younger families that are having a tough time also?
anon 6:30,
Correction. It is 3 councilors and the Derry taxpayers alliance that is doing this for political purposes only. I am calling it here in my blog for what it is.... pure political pandering. Don't fall for it and tell as many people you know about this.
BC In your new found role as the taxpayers' friend, could you explain you vote to squander another $180,000 on the EIS? You can't be dumb enough to believe 4A will ever get built. With Bulkley, its ego not wanting to let his pet project die. What's your excuse? I propose we put the EIS book in a prominent place (center of the first floor of the municipal center?) anong with your name and that of your fellow councilors clearly showing what we and Londonderry get for $2,000,000. We will have our own little Hall of Shame.
p.s. Does your copy of the Constitution only allow free speech on non-agenda items? If I recall, even Rick Metts couldn't stomach that vote. We'll put that video tape in the Hall of Shame too.
DEFINITION OF "RE-DE-UNRECUSAL":
A CORRUPT NEW POLITICAL PROCESS INVENTED BY A TOWN COUNCILOR IN SOUTHERN NEW HAMPSHIRE IN THE EARLY 21ST CENTURY. THE USER MUST BE A LAWYER WHO IS ENTANGLED AND OFFICIALLY DECLARED IN AT LEAST TWO CONFLICTS OF INTEREST WITH A MULTI-MILLIOJ DOLLAR PUBILC PROJECT AND FOR INOCUOUS AND VASILATING REASONS EITHER VOTES OR ABSTAINS FROM VOTING ON THE MATTER; A SLIPPERY AND CORRUPT POLITICAL PROCESS.
annon 9:50,
congrats, you bought into the kevin coyle unethical distraction campaign. But you have also done it baselessly.
would you suggest that council chair NOT be obligated to enforce the council rules - whatever they are?
BTW - I actually think that public comment should be allowed for agenda items - but until the rules are changed, it has to be enforced.
BC- This weekend I will be writing a letter to the Derry News challenging you to a debate on their pages. The subject will be ADT's Campaign for the Elderly and more specifically the proposed changes in the elderly exemptions. Rather than picking apart your comments on this blog, I believe that a larger audience would benefit from hearing the two opposing views. Keyboards at 20 paces. Are you up for it?
(you need not post this)
DJN,
yes, i would be up for a good point/counter point debate. I don't mind if you post some points here as well. I'm interested to see your opinion on the matter.
DJN,
In fact I don't have a problem in video tapping a debate and posting a video blog on this site!
VIDEO TAPE IT!!! --- GREAT IDEA!!! --- IT COULD BE VIEWED OVER AND OVER --- THAT WILL MINIMIZE THE SPIN !!!!
WHAT SAY YOU, DOUG?
this is a very good idea, but please folks let's not get wrapped up in the showmanship of who challanged who.
this is a serious issue, leave the showmanship out of it.
anon 9:50,
First off, yes i do think that 4A will come in. If i did not think so, than you are correct to assume i would be dumb to fund it.
Nothing strange here I have supported 4A all along and made it a priority with my campaign for re-election.
As for free speech, I am all for it. However when we have an agenda and we are doing the towns business, one must follow rules. This has nothing to do with anyone being prevented from free speech- lets get that straight.
Maybe we should let the public run the meetings for three hours and then we can have the last 20 minutes ddicated to the councilors speaking and doing town business???
MYSPACE
this is where this debate should be posted where the whole world can get a birdseye view on some of the insane ideas brought forth in this town.
why not allow the whole world to get a good laugh at Derry instead of just NH itself.
I am in the midst of assigning myself some sort of label so that I to may receive a tax break i will soon post it, because married with children and home owner doesn't seem to entice any councilors to give us a tax break.
Any numbers out there as to how many homeowners with children live in Derry? does it top the 6.8%?
BC - you confuse limiting the time someone speaks (unfortunate but reasonable given the number of people who might wish to speak) with controlling the subject matter of the speech.
And please spare me the "I was just following the rules/orders" tactic. It didn't work at Nuremberg and doesn't work here. The council makes its rules and if you see free speech being trampled (by Bulkley knowing ahead of time where someone was going in their comments) it is your obligation to propose changing the rules. Instead you voted not to change them. You are part of the problem not part of the solution.
anon 7:03,
Can you walk into the state house and just start talking? how about in the US house or Senate? How come? What about my free speech? Come on, stop playing that game. If Baldasarro wanted to get his own tv show or advertise that he is having a meeting-he could do that. To abide by rules of agenda in a towns business meeting is not the time to play politics! Especially for entertainment value.
BC You may have missed it but the gentleman from Londonderry presented his card to Bulkley prior to the meeting and asked for an OK to speak. Two and a half hours later he rose to speak and was told that he wasn't allowed to speak on that subject. And who says we are not neighborly?
The Derry Town Council's arrogance when it comes to listening to the public is legendary. That's why you are all so loved. Didn't start with you, you simply maintain the tradition. King George III...Bulkley and his flunkies.
Bravo BC!
Annon 7:03 PM,
Nuremberg?
Lucky for you BC gives far more latitude and patience to gutter analogies than I. Your depth of dangerous ignorance doesn't allow for a response that shouldn't be censored.
annon 7:37
yah but, duh, isn't it plainly obvious that the londonderry guy was a political friend of coyles, whose employer is londonderry!!!
this matter could very well go "criminal".
It seems to me that as of late, there are subtle influeneces being brought forth very quietly and carefuly by Mr. Coyle. His smooth manuers during a council meeting...ex...having the RailTrail people give a 10 minute presentation when it wasn't even on the agenda. He just worked them into his council report...Is using proper protacol to good for him? And I just loved his voting style. Passes until he hears others votes to obstaining then voting. Don't you try it Brian. You'll get your hand slap!
I say abolish the public forum segment completely. If it can't be eliminated, restrict it further.
It has, in fact, deteriorated to the same 4 or 5 people complaining but offering no constructive suggestions and they certainly are not willing to invest any personal time or treasure into any solution proposed. It is also a place where candidate wannabes play utilize showmanship and gamesmanship for the political benefit.
BTW annon 7:03 and 7:37 (likely the same person) - do you think the chariman should be able to pick and choose which Council rules he enforces?
You are conveniently confusing his enforcement as the chairman (a duty) and his positions as a councilor (his right).
Mr. Buckley is doing an outstanding job; I too disagree with him on the issue, but respect his outstanding performance as Chair enforcing the rules. He has NOT played some very powerful political cards he has at his disposal as Chair - he has been very impartial. For example, he has allowed virtually all requested items on the agenda - he doesn't have to OR could slow some things to a grind.
Kevins police prosecutor got on the agenda as soon as it could. Kevin's bike path people got their time at a moments notice. Kevins (and the ADT) Senior vote buting scam will be heard in very short order. ETC, ETC, ETC...
8:13 We'll put you down as another lover of the First Amendment. You believe BC should censor his blog of analogies that you find offensive? Fortunately he is a better man than you.
Anon 7:37 YES! Coyle works in Londonderry, Londonderry is near Salem, Salem is the name of a place known for witches, Coyle's a witch! Besides that we should see if he floats (Monty Python reference).
6:02 Since town services for your family probably cost about $2700 and since each of your children are costing the taxpayers about$9000 to educate, I'd say that unless you are paying north of $12,000 a year in taxes you are almost certainly already getting a tax break.
BC: I'd be delighted to debate you on elderly exemptions on TV. I suggest Derry Public TV (you can run it on your web site for your fan(s) if you would like. I'll get back to you on a proposed format. I'd like to balance the informational content with the jousting. Let's skew toward the informational. I'd suggest that we plan for this to air immediately after the primary. (Between the Holidays and Primary no one will play attention to another political thing on TV) In the mean time we can do the newspaper debate. I've checked with the Derry News and they are onboard. Let's let Bill Gilman at the Derry News define the format (length of article etc.). I think he will be fair. I envision duelling columns (mine should probably be the one on the right).
Doug
Anon 12/6/07 2:57
Sorry but I don't have time to explore with you how proposing tax incentives to stay in Derry "exploits" the people receiving the exemption. I will assume that BC is the champion of your misguided perspective and will deal with him directly in the debates. Please feel free to give him your pearls of wisdom. I sit up at night dreaming that he uses your thoughts in his debate column.
annon 7:59,
Salem NH is not known for witches...it is Salem, MA.
Annon 8:13,
I respect BCs right to censor according to his rule - it is stated on the top of home page of this blog and pasted here:
"The opinions expressed are of my own individualy and are not to be interpreted as official of any governing body. Comments from readers are also of their own opinions and will be edited only if the content is harmful or non constructive to any individual. It is important to share information and thoughts on political process so that we may discuss issues that effect us all."
I have a question...
I keep hearing that the elderly or seniors are a tax saver. Just a few thoughts what happens when these seniors start utilizing more services in the form of ambulances, 911 calls and start to rely on other home services for meals etc.? How are we reimbursed for these? Is it federal gov't that picks up the tab when our tax free seniors are unable to pay for the services they have rendered? Or is it us the tax payers of Derry that will ultimately pay. I am very interested in this because the only vision I get from this is increase increase increase of my taxes to help a minority of taxpayers.
I have to say I am in favor of Fairbanks(I live in her district) she has always answered my questions and provided answers when I asked but if this continues there will be one less vote for her when and if she runs again. This will be the 3 amigos day of wrekoning if they con't with this road they are on.
Are they pursuing this because the majority of people who vote are seniors? i just don't get it.
BC thanks for this blog keep it up..i tell you if the real estate market was not the way it is there would be a big for sale sign on my street!!!!
Hey BC,
Maybe Doug Newell is afraid of debating his opponent in the coming election, whoever that is.
Before any debating is done it would seem that Mr. Newell would owe the taxpayers some honest answers to the 11 questions that his group uses to formulate their policy and positions on issues. It would certainly be a nice way to kick off the public debate. It would also be nice to see his responses in the local papers.
The following questions are taken directly from the ADT website.
On any issue ADT will ask these Questions:
1. What "need" is this action supposed to address? Is this truly the role of government?
2. Is the proposed action legal and within the proper jurisdiction? Does it rely on a narrow interpretation of the "letter of the law" while running counter to the "spirit of the law"?
3. What other options, including private sector, exist to address this issue? Have they been properly and effectively evaluated?
4. Which possible solution has the lowest short term costs to the taxpayer, and which has the lowest long term costs?
5. Does this action benefit only a few? Should the majority of taxpayers fund this benefit for the few?
6. What are the short and long term consequences of implementing this action? Have recurring operating costs been factored into the true cost to the taxpayers? Will this action force funding consequent actions?
7. What are the likely collateral consequences of this action? Increased traffic, reduced safety, damage to existing neighborhood? Will this action increase the size of bureaucracy, and/or add regulatory interference? Will it result in the loss of personal freedoms?
8. Who truly benefits? Are there hidden agendas that are being fulfilled by this issue? Is there favoritism or other remuneration involved?
9. Are undefined generalities, vague assumptions and unverifiable conjecture being used to advance the idea? Or is the idea being supported by proven facts?
10. What restraints are in place to verify that the intended action will be implemented as planned? (without changes in scope once authorized)
11. How can the action be undone if it is proven to have failed to meet its stated goals? How much will it cost to undo the action?
Anon 9:40 No kidding? I think my note went over your head just a bit. I'll try less subtlety next time.
Anon 3:17 Why don't you ask BC to use those questions in the debate? You can make the whole thing one big ADT ad.
Anon 3:17,
Great point, it sure would be interesting to see if Doug Neweel addresses his own priciples or ignores and runs away from them.
If the latter, perhaps BC will answer ADT's questions for this issue. Or maybe both gentlemen will.
i would like to compliment Buckley (as another annon wrote, he has been an impartial chair), Chirichello, Ferrante and Metts for finally gaining some spine in dealing the nonsense.
Examples:
ferrante essentially cut off the debate on 4A with a motion.
buckley stood down coyle on coyles false legal alarm about how it was being funded.
metts publically re-questioned coyle on his messy recusal position.
and chirichlello grilled coyle about his effort to buy senior votes.
well done people, its about time the majority excersized the will of the majority. more of the same, please!!!
footnote: it appears that the derry snews has slipped back into the abiss with their editoral.
footnote #2: if i were you guys, i wouldn't simply accept ANY parlimentary interpretation from them as fact - question it. Carney (then fairbanks) was wrong recently about council rules.
footnote #3: fairbanks read a compelling letter on the prosecutor position. she just doesnt get it though. rather than attempting to publicaly usurp the authority from the town admin, why not use that letter to try to get the admin change his mind. she's captured showboating skills from coyle.
Hey, did anyone else notice that Coyle's boy, Dimmock, was there again at the last council meeting and again attempted to give his public forum time - this time to Baldasarro.
We all remember the orchestrated event with Burtis a few weeks back.
Wink, Wink, Kevin.
9/12/07 7:22 AM
Yes, those free speech advocates can be annoying. Imagine, just because he asked Bulkley permission and then waited over two hours to speak that guy thought he should be allowed to speak. Go figure.
I'm confused, is Coyle and the rest of the ADT proposing some kind of action right now, in the middle of this fiscal year, on this senior thing?
Wouldn't it be far easier to discuss any change in it as part of the next new budget?
anon 11:43,
Ok he asks to speak and Bulkley says yes at the end of the meeting. When it comes time to come up- Bulkley specifically states to come up give name for record and to Speak on NON agenda items. Mr Baldasssaro agrees and then begins to ignore what he has just agreed to. Watch the council tape.
anon 5:32,
You're not confused- You are just realizing that this is all about pandering. You are correct that this discussion takes place during budget times in March of every year. In fact in their proposal ( coyle, fairbanks & Carney and ADT ) in that proposal- they make an ordinence to be effective APRIL 1, 2008. IF this is not the most obvious form of pandering to get votes ( specifically from the elderly population) and one that will INCREASE taxes for everyone i have ever seen. Watch for details soon.
I wish the Derry abd Nutfield News would publish stories about this. Then, we'll see how many supporters the three amigos really have. My guess is that their support would drop really fast.
It's stunning that the Taxpayers Association would abandon its own principles by proposing to RAISE TAXES on the vast majority of us for the benefit of a few.
anon 1:17 and 5:36,
Both make a great observation. Hopefully the word will get out what this group is doing. And yes, it truly shows how desperate thay have become to gain an extra seat on this years council. Selling the majority of taxpayers down the river for a very very long time is a shame! Spread the word to neighbors and friends to BEWARE!
anon 1:17
Both those papers have run stories on this subject.
BC you are babbling. What's the "very very long time" reference? You have yet to suggest what the ADT proposal that so terrifies you will cost. Will it cost more than a 4A EIS? Prove it.
It appears that you worry less about spending taxpayers' money than you fear becoming an insignificant minority vote on the council. The sky is falling! The sky is falling! Maybe for you it is.
anon 9:22,
Oh I'll prove it- In due time my friend ....in due time.
Annon 9:22
Your post is utterly ridiculous and pathetically voids of reality.
You demand from BC that he publish the costs of the ADT’s senior scam?! Well, duh, it might seem logical to most that the ADT should do that.
I am so looking forward to Doug Newell’s math on this one – we all do remember his $72,000 per incremental kindergartner…then there was his previous post where he declared 2 + 2 = 1000…and I almost forgot about his 20 Super Walmart justification.
Yea, he will have to dive deeper into the fictional genre on this one.
anon 5:36,
Its called selling your soul for a seat on the council. My guess is that Mr.Newell will be running for council as well as a return of Mr. Hopfgarten.
The ADT has no other issue to run on than the "senior scam" becasue the majority this year REDUCED everyones taxes. Not just a selct few!
I don't think that I will end up supporting the increased elderly exemption, as it goes too far. However, I'm happy that it is coming up before the election. I want to hear the debate and the candidates' views before I go to vote, not after. Not much that I, as a voter can do about it after the election, but I can most cerainly base my vote on the candidates' positions.
Also, Count me as being strongly in favor on letting people speak before the council on any issue, just not nonagenda items. It really can only be interpreted as trying to silence citizens on matters coming before the council.
Tom Seidell
did i miss something?
did the adt put out the specifics of their plan?
if not, what the heck are you guys gonna debate - the weather?
Tom,
Good to see you back to the blog! I think the council's job is to lower taxes for all. Not raise one groups taxes so that you can give some a tax break. The only exception to that for me is when a senior wants to stay in their home and has no extra money and does not have a quarter of a million dollars in the bank. Their proposal ( ADT ) is to give a couple making $44,000 a year and with $200,000 in a bank account a tax break on the back of lets say a single mom with 1 child living on only 30K a year. Thats just not right!
anon 7:15,
I will post their proposal in the next day or two. The way it stands right now. Will raise taxes on everyone outside of the exemption.
BC, Re: your 10:09 post,
Mr. Hopfgarten was recently quoted something like - "it's not my intention to run"...as a veteran do-nothing Rep and a former 9 year councilor, he has also grabbed a headline favoring term limits for local pols.
Obviously, if he really believed that, he would first impose those limits on himself. Together with Newells senior scam, this is yet another example of that ADT crowd having NO PRINCIPLES AND ONLY STANDING UP FOR GETTING ELECTED.
The Derry Snews will certainly give him all the headlines he wants, but at the end of the day he has ACCOMPLISHED NOTHING FOR DERRY as a Rep.
There sure is a long list of bills he has sponsored...very very few have actually become law - that absolutely does reflect on his out-of-touch political views and his inability to build consensus. It's his way or the highway - as written into the ADT's mission statement:
"Once these positions are adopted, they are not subject to negotiation or compromise."
A rock solid case will also be made that his positions and votes as Rep. have acted AGAINST Derry Taxpayers.
Paul H and the ADT also do not even go through the motions of seeking out opposing views as evidenced by their handling of the Charter Commission. That's why nobody showed up at there meetings. THEY (all 7 of them) SIMPLY KNOW BETTER.
anon 3:17,
Numbers 5 and Numbers 8. I would love to hear the ADT address their elderly exempt proposal with their own questions.
i gathered from the last council Meeting that frank childs was VERY non-committal in regards to cost of any changes to the elderly exemption --- the fact NOBODY can give hard cost numbers.
this reality also brings into play ADT's question #9 as listed above in the annon 3:17 post:
"... undefined generalities, vague assumptions and unverifiable conjecture ..."
BC - Questions #5 and #8 are already addressed in my column "A Win/Win Proposition."
You did read that column didn't you? (Unfortunately, I see no evidence that you did.) Perhaps you have some killer facts that you are reserving for the duelling columns. You will have facts won't you, not just BS opinions? I can't wait.
Doug
DJN,
Doug- No I did not see that column. Is that the DN you talk about? If so, I do not get that paper. You may think it has many readers but truth is it has lost many readers in the last couple of years. By the way- Just so that you may be aware my blog gets an average of 77 visitors daily. Do you also see the number 3 in the right column? Thats number 3 most influencal blog in NH. Go ahead and click that box and see for yourself. You may think that this blog has limited reach, but I know different. And with many known bloggers- this blog does very well for itself.
anon 7:20,
It will indeed be hard to pin down an exact number. However I will give you some tid-bits to think about. We have 167 people that take the elderly exemptions today and that cost is about 7 cents on the taxes we pay. Manageable. Keep in mind that right now in Derry, we have about 530 registered voters over the age of 80. now nobody has a crystal ball but when you open up extremely generous exemptions for the people who make upto 45K year and with 200K in a bank account, well you can see how some numbers maybe effected. And I did not count the age group 65-80 yet either.
Thats 7 cents per 1000 on your assessed value by the way.
also everyone needs to keep in mind that the avg age in derry is 38 years old. As baby boomers get older- more and more will be taking the exemptions.
Mr. Newell,
Asking Brian if he is stating a so called fact or a BS opinion is very disrespectful. This holier than thou attitude of yours is why you will never be elected to office. If dissenting opinions from your own are BS, then it just shows your small mindedness.
Doug Newell,
I have read and re-reread your column - in fact, your column evades answering the questions.
Your position and justification is insulting; it is based on the notion that you think we are stupid.
Maybe you can pull that off with our elderly...
BC - Sometimes you leave me speechless. (I'm sure that's great from your perspective.) You rant about the ADT's Campaign for the Elderly... without ever reading the rationale behind it. I'll email you a copy so that we start the debate on equal footing. No fun duelling with an unarmed man.
BC- ps Don't get too excited about the 77 visits a day on your blog site. That's just me over and over. I live to read your pontifications.
Have a nice day.
Doug
BC 10:17,
167 NOW, 530 VOTERS OVER 80, MULTIPLES MORE IN THE 65-80 CATAGORY...WOW, IT'S APPARENT THAT RAISING MY TAXES WITH THE PROPOSED EXEMPTION WOULD OFFER A TAX BREAK LIKELY TO THOUSANDS OF DERRY SENIORS!!!!
AND BY PLAN, THAT NUMBER WOULD GROW EVERY YEAR!!!!
Doug,
Thanks for being such a big fan! What I'm most impress with though is your use of 77 different ISP locations. You are such a big fan that you would bounce from computer to new computer each time. I'm amazed and quite frankly bewildered at the same time.
also on my ranting- you are speechless because i don't see your (ADT) rationale behind it?
Doug- the fact that you are bringing this on before an election which you know always gets talked about in march Budgets speaks volumes. WHy didn't Coyle Fairbanks or Carney second my motion back in March? wait..Lets be honest Doug. Your trying to win votes in the upcoming election- Lets hear you deny that!
anon 8:10,
Good observation! To be fair though some elderly will pass away and some will move- however I'm 45, I'm a baby- boomer and it goes to show that for the next 20+ years these numbers could be staggering.
BC Yes that's how I exercise... running from computer to computer checking this web site. Have you noticed all the weight I've lost?
I found anon 7:21's comments to be especially condecending towards the elderly.
As to anon 11:54, BC you will have to be the judge of whether I have insulted you. I believe I have simply asked you to take the discussion up a notch and inject facts into our conversation. One can spend hours searching this blog for a fact.
"Opinions are like ********, everyone has one."
Doug,
Annon 7:21 here...my comments were mocking YOUR condesending attitude towards the elderly...
1:32 I see, the sarcasm failed to come through the blog entry.
Condescending??? Try talking to some of our elderly and see if they find ADT's support to be condescending. My number is not listed yet still they call to thank us. (word of mouth)
BC "these numbers could be staggering" Yes! Just imagine a town with a lot of people who pay taxes but use almost no services. If fact, you don't have to imagine, look at Portsmouth NH.
doug,
what about people like Paul H who doesn't have any kids? Does he get a break? Again, I have no problem with exemptions for the truly needy- not people making 45K and 200K in a bank. You are trying to make a perfect taxing system and it will never work. But the biggest issue here is that you swing more of a burden on other taxpayers. I don't doubt some elders are thanking you for taking away their taxes but you are smart enough to know the costs get shifted to others. there are no free rides.
By God, let's get the trains ready on track to Auschwitz --- be gone all our burdensome children, according to the ADT you need to be replaced for that reason - you are too much of a burden!!!
Doug - no point in attempting to deflect otherwise - our population is not growing; you want it to be older.
Social Engineering and Re-distribution of Income - Kennedy and Clinton love you!
6:43 No, I do not want to rid the town of children. The key to our tax situation is striking a healthy balance. Balance between retail and other commercial, a balance between residential and commercial, a balance between old and young. Not social engineering, mathematics. (an unknown science among Derry's leadership)
I'm delighted that Teddy and one of the Clintons loves me. You can never have too many friends.
BC- I'm delighted that you raised the issue of Paul Hopfgarten. He lives at the Fairways. I have written twice to our town administrator asking why, by my calculation the Fairways is assessed at about $56MM and sold not long ago for $65MM. I also inquired at a town council meeting and, after explaining to our administrator what the Fairways was and that it was our largest taxpayer, he agreed that $8MM of possible underassessment was a big deal (about $300,000 in lost tax revenues)
I have yet to hear an explanation for this situation. Take a break from driving the elderly out of town and look into this will you?
I would love to be proven wrong on this and know that a big non-NH corporation was paying its fair share. Unfortunately it doesn't appear that our admin. reads his email.
Doug
...when carney was running, he said he was going to be an advocate for young families...my guess is that he'll support rasing their taxes.
BC- " the costs get shifted to others. there are no free rides."
If the pie stays the same size you are right. But what if we enlarge the pie?
"It's not that the colors aren't there
It's just imagination they lack
Everything's the same back in my little town"
Doug,
To enlarge the pie I would say that you would be bringing in more revenue...Businesses coming in to bring values into town. If I understand what you are saying- I agree. Problem is that you may be putting the cart before the horse here. Energy costs up!Home values Down! Food costs up! US dollar down. Your proposal has very bad timing for families trying to make ends meet. If we had a better mix of business/residential such as Salem or Bedford (both without tax caps) then it could possibly make some sense. However I still think ( exemption) it needs to be for the needest to be fair.
I'll let you explain what the bigger piece of the pie would mean.
bc, aren't you talking about a form of welfare? i don't think derry should be in the welfare business.
anon 3:23,
State laws on welfare are a whole different subject. I am in favor of elderly exemptions However I do not agree with the more than generous proposals of the ADT and COyle Fairbanks & Carney. Its way too generous and will burden other taxpayers way too much.
By the Way... All municipalities have a welfare dept. and I'll go on to say I believe most taxpayers don't mind helping the people who are truly needy. The ADT proposal is anything but.
BC- the reason commercial development is advantagous to Derry is that it generates more in taxes than it consumes in services. What is the percentage that Bev F. tosses out about that from some study? There is no difference between commercial development and increased share of elderly. Except!!!! the elderly are more mobil!!! Parkland is stuck where it is for the most part. The elderly can sell their homes and move to other towns. And, given the perspective (your perspective) that the elderly exemption is an expense to be minimized, Derry has become a very bad deal for the elderly. So they leave... and the mix of those who are net drains on the town (like me as I put 3 kids through Derry schools) and those that are net contributors (like the elderly)
gets worse. Based upon a 15th century accounting concept we are chasing our most valuable neighbors out of Derry.
Why can't people see this for what it is? Brian and I can see it.
Most of the elderly vote. Most others do not. How does one get elected? Cater to those who vote.
Promise a huge elderly exemption. Get huge favorable results.
bc, i know all municipalties have a welfare dept....that just adds to my point.
if we want to direct help to the truely needy, why not do it through ONE government outlet - that way we know exactly what we are contributing.
by offering an exemption to the "needy" it offers a second outlet - after that we'll never know how much we're spending opn welfare.
on another level, that's the real beauty (ugh!) of our (property) tax system. it's simple.
you are spot on about newells idea - it goes way to far.
how far? my guess is no one really knows real numbers. how can they?
you know, it should be interjected into this discussion that derry's homeowning elderly that have resided in town for many years also have benefited the most, having significantly lower cost basis on their appreciated homes.
sure, there are cash flow issues, but some of these elderly have enormous equity in their homes thanks to the yonger citizens that have help bid up their homes value.
as such, are they not wanting their cake and to eat it too?
anon 6:12 I bet you hate pharmaceutical companies as well. Its not whether they cure diseases, its what's in their hearts when they do it. And who is capable of reading others' minds? Well, you are through your magical powers. Better death and disease than impure motives, better to drive all the elderly from their homes than Newell get elected.
Please address the issue of whether retaining the elderly is a good thing for Derry.
anon 6:50 Oh you got so close but then threw up your hands at an "impossible task".
Except that it is not really impossible to estimate the financial impact of the ADT proposal especially if the town has access to anything like modern database technology. The town has who owns the properties. The town has the ages of the voters. The town has the property valuations. From the IRS website you can get the income distributions for Derry. Put those together with some common sense assumptions and you begin to put some bounds on the estimate.
It's certainly poor management to declare a proposal "way to far" before you know how far it is. How far is it BC? I don't have access to the town's data.
Of course I can calculate the near trivial impact of our current elderly exemption. Less than 7/10ths of 1% of the $3Billion total town valuation. That's the Perfect Storm right now. More like a tempest in a teapot.
Here's where I see this proposal falling apart. The theory is that by increasing the elderly exemptions you would attract more elderly taxpayers to Derry. I agree. However, you would only attract those that meet the requirements for the elderly exemption. The elderly that don't meet that requirement would be foolish to move to Derry because thesir taxes would be sky-high (like those of us younger folks). The unspoken part of this plan is that you beleive families will need to move out of Derry because their taxes will be so high. That's the real savings you must see less kids = lower school taxes.
Let me be clear about this right now - I will never, ever vote for a councilor or candidate that supports this proposal.
Tom Seidell
Annon 6:38,
You're framing of the question is flawed beyond repair.
The question is this - is displacing the children of Derry through shifting the tax burden a good idea?
The taxes on young families is already too high.
djn,
this is your proposal - have just admitted to making a specific proposal with solid numbers.
its your idea - you justify it.
correction:
djn,
this is your proposal - have just admitted to making a specific proposal withOUT solid numbers.
its your idea - you justify it.
Tom - Thanks for investing some thought into analyzing this proposal. You are a pleasant change from the knee-jerk negative reaction. You are off on one assumption however. ADT does not assume that any elderly move into Derry because of the proposal. You are correct that we in Derry have gotten ourselves into such a hole when it comes to taxes that few people on fixed incomes would consider Derry. That's unfortunate but its the reality we face. The proposal is aimed at keeping the elderly we have and the people who are about to become elderly. They may not be making a pure financial decision in that many would like to stay if they could.
Neither do we assume (or desire) that any families be displaced. Rather than the elderly fleeing Derry only to have their homes filled with young families, we envision the elderly staying in those homes. The young families might find that towns like Salem who already benefit from more elderly and therefore lower taxes might be a better place to settle.
We are perilously close to a black hole where no elderly live in Derry because of the high taxes, causing the taxes to go up, making others who have a choice to bail out. This proposal is aimed at slowing the exodus.
Anon 8:06 Boy, you've got me there. Lacking perfect knowledge, we made a proposal. Welcome to the real world. Almost no decisions are ever made with exact knowledge. I do not know how many elderly will choose to stay that would have left. We could measure the change over time. We could analyze the flight in the past. We know the proportion of elderly in Derry is way below the state average. We know the tax rate in Derry is higher than most communities. We might hypothesize that the sparcity of elderly might be related to the high tax rate. Decision making is about assembling available information and determining the best course of action.
Now that we have the town council's attention perhaps the town can shed more light on this proposal. They have the data (perhaps).
anon 8:02 am. We are in total agreement that young families pay too much in Derry (and all other) taxes. Unfortunately now that BC and the council have voted to bond the creation of a worthless book (the 4a EIS study), young families will be paying for that foolishness for the next 20 years.
C'mon guys, the waters not that good in Derry - I think life expectancy's around 77.
A few years old but interesting reading......
Costs, Effects, and the Potential Impact of
Property-Tax Relief for New Hampshire’s Seniors
MR.BC,
IF, Derry is such a wounderful place to retire "with money",why the heck would newfield and mr swan move so far away????
Sorry i just remembered. IT TOOK taxpayers too long to get rid of swan. IF, MORE people would watch careless spending,
the tax rate wouldn't be so high in the first place.
The older folks that i know in Derry right now have there thermostats at 60 degrees because they are on SS AND with a combined income of 14000.00 a year,4000.00 of that going to drug stores,[at lease we have plenty of those]4550.00 for taxes on a modest cape style home ,a 10 year old car ,under 6k in the bank ,with 54400.oo to live on for the entire year are not living the Derry Dream or have 200 k in the bank.
SO, BC. KEEP AN EYE ONE BOOKS WILL YA, PLEASE .
I in no way support DJN's plan.
If for some unknown reason this plan actually gets put into effect (God help us all) it will rely on one key factor.
Doug's plan is to "slow the exodus". This will be a great effort.
My guess is is that most people with children in this Town are at least age 50-55 (a lot are probably younger) when their children graduate from PA. With Doug's plan, one would have to wait around for 10-15 years and continue to pay higher taxes in Derry until they turn 65. Highly unlikely.
Once people's children graduate they leave Town. As a younger resident in Derry I will tell you that most of my friends parents put their house on the market the summer after we graduated high school. The ones that stayed, had more children in school and plan to leave when t hose children graduate.
Good job Doug. I will go out a limb and applaud your efforts and desire to better Derry.
It's okay Doug... not every idea is a good idea.
annon 12:57,
good reading. here's 2 points that i drew from it:
first, from the second paragraph of the summary, senior exemptions have "the drawback of shifting costs onto other property tax payers, including homeowners with even lower incomes who happen to be less than 65 years of age.
second, from a chart on page 9, derry already offers the 12th most generous exemption in the state of nh.
15/12/07 12:57 PM Thanks for the reference. It contains a great amount of interesting data. Its unfortunate that, as you pointed out, it's a bit out of date. The report certainly documents the fact that NH towns and cities are competing for the elderly.
I believe that the nature of this competition was/is lost on many in town. They think the elderly exemption is just a way to be nice to poor old folks.
DN
djn,
If you think data from 2005 is " a bit out of date" you must be someone who wants fresh data. If you have read this report you will see that in the 2 years since-Tax burdens are heavier on those that don't get exemtions. It's going to get worse doug. Did you not read this report? Your plan would accelarate the "greying of NH" which is not neccesarily a good thing. Where will the workers be? Who will bring business into town if we don't have enough young people? Lets be honest with people Doug- you want this issue for the votes- otherwise you would have waited until March. You guys are fooling nobody.
Brian,
Am I the only one who notices this? Why is it that most of YOUR comments and replies to this post are done as "anoymous"? You're not fooling anyone with this. I guess you need to create the illusion that there are actually people in this town that think your doing a good job on the Council!
Signed Anonymous - Just like Brian
anon 5:22
HUH?
Ah great BC, now you are coming out against the "graying of NH" ... by the way the whole country is aging. Pity you are not up for re-election for some time or this could be great fun.
My plan accelerates the graying of NH? Are you saying that with a straight face? Does it also cause global warming, black flies and poison ivy? Get a grip.
BC- As for the posting by anon 5:22 don't be alarmed, as I said its just you and me on this blog (and I'm typing in from many different computers)
Anon 2:12 Its too bad that you sound like one of the "Pinkerton then out people". Of course, if you are, ADT's proposal will cost Derry nothing in your case since you won't be around to get an elderly exemption.
I cannot guarentee that this proposal will keep people in Derry. We could try it, measure the results and fine tune it. Beyond the financial calculations, I believe it is important to recognize the elderly and let them know we would like them to stay.
The elderly in Derry have paid for 3 of my kids to go through the school system (I pay alot of taxes but not enough to cover 36 student/years of Derry schools). Someone should say thank you to them as we push them out of town.
DJN,
Now we know what you are doing! As your three kids go through the school system- you are being "subsidized" by the taxpayers of Derry meaning you are not paying yuor fair share and by the time they graduate might you turn 65? Just in time to get your own new elderly subsidy? Hmmm. thats interesting. Seems that Coyle will be in the same company as you on this one. ( I know. you both may have to pay full taxes your a couple years)
DJN,
Keep in mind that the elderly already sent their children through the school system. The way the process works is when your kids go through, the community pays. when my kids go through the community pays. I'm in the 2nd year with no children going through and do you hear me squaking? Why your group always wants to divide the community is beyond me.
anon 12:37,
Vote with the ADT and you'll ( Derry ) will have the most generous in the state. I feel for the taxpayers who are in the middle- No children in the system and not old enough to get a ADT tax break. You people get the "double whammy" or should I say "tripple whammy".
a two year old study is out of date if it disagrees with the Newell...it's current if it agrees with him.
it's about votes people - but he's once again and pathetically miscalculated the intelligence of the folks of derry.
the scary part is that he doesn't appear the least bit embarrassed.
BC,
Can I suggest that you send a copy of that study to all the other councilors.
BC - I agree with you as to how it should be. Now let's talk about how it is. People (lots of them) stay in Derry or move to Derry for Pinkerton. Once they have extracted that value they leave or become seniors and are forced out by our economics. This burdens the rest of us. This proposal begins to address that problem by trying to incent them to stay.
You are wrong however (in practical terms)in your assertion that Derry will have the most generous in the state. When you apply the exemption to our tax rate, seniors are still better off moving out of Derry and into most other NH communities. And that's what counts, not the raw exemption numbers.
Sorry, BC but the facts are that I doubt I will ever qualify for the exemption. Nice try.
From someone in the business, how would retaining the elderly impact the local real estate business? What part of commissions come from selling homes of people fleeing Derry due to taxes?
anon 10:27 Where did I say that I disagree with that study? Obviously I'd like the study to be current so that I could use the numbers without concern that they had changed. What I extract from the study is that NH municipalities are competing for the elderly and Derry is clueless that the competition is even going on. Two of the most aggressive towns in that competition are Windham and Pelham, right in our backyard. Perhaps we need councilors who are not trying to do CPR on a 20 year old irrelevant 4A idea and who are atuned to who is eating our lunch.
Doug,
You asserting something that is radically false - I challenge you to prove it:
"...become seniors and are forced out by our economics."
For every senior you name who you personally claim was driven out by high taxes, I can name 10 families.
Come Doug, an ADT tenant is to base your positions on hard numbers...where are your hard numbers that prove that ridiculous notion.
Please! Let's conduct this conversation truthfully.
DJN,
First, one would have to believe like you do that all seniors live in a $300K 3 bedroom home. While there may be some, the majority once they reach a certain age, do not want the maintainence of a large home.So they move to smaller quarters. Also, my district #4 has many elderly that live in older homes that are generally smaller and have no mortgage payments but lots of equity. Your rational is that these seniors by staying, would prevent families from moving in... well doug is very laughable. Derry has more low to mid income homes per capita than Manchester. Your increasing exemptions for all the wrong reasons. Not because of needs based but because of politics.
Moving all new discussion on Elderly exemptions onto new thread! so that it will be easier for all to read.
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