Who is to pay?, That is the question. The answer? Does anybody know?.
At the last Derry town council meeting under Councilors requests ( which comes at the very end of each meeting) We had three very interesting requests from three town councilors. It seems a little bit ironic that the three councilors should have three requests at the same town meeting.
Councilor Carney requested a "break out" cost analysis of the Ambulance Dept/Fire Dept
Councilor Fairbanks requested that an "outside firm" look into the fire dept to see if the dept is being run efficiently
Councilor Coyle requested that we hire an "outside firm" to look into the police morale claim.
The Carney request seems like it would be pretty much straight forward and could be done in house very easily however the last two requests have "outside firms" in their requests.
The real question becomes- Who's to pay for these studies? Seems to me that the taxpayers will be once again "on the hook" for these costs that have not been budgeted in any budget.
Earlier in the year, at budget time we councilors discussed the facts of next years budgets and what they may mean for next year as far as possible lay-offs or "stream lining depts". At that time, Town Administrator Steinhouse told councilors he would put something together in Oct/Nov for next year to see what the possibilities would be in regards to an upcoming tough budget. So why would we hire an outside group at this point in time? Should we not wait to see what the town may have in store in Oct/Nov's report? Hmmm, very interesting.....
The police Morale issue is also again up for discussion. The police union I would imagine, did not like Dr. Moody's findings and so we keep on hearing about this issue again and again. Now Councilor Coyle wants an "outside firm" to look into the issue.
Who's to pay for this one? If they don't like these findings, will we keep hearing about the same issue over and over. Why are we discussing this and trying to negotiate a contract at the same time? Seems the issue keeps popping up at negotiating time.Why is that?
Here's an idea! Maybe the Police Union can pay for an "outside firm" to check into morale issues. Lets first find out what the costs are going to be, second, lets decide if the taxpayers should be on the hook for these unexpected costs.
What do you think?
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146 comments:
I agree that the council is on spending spree, It is obvious that Janet has it out for the Fire Department, Brent Carney is just trying to find something to do (look at me, look at me, Kevin and Janet will be so happy). kevin Coyle, I dont like any thing about him at all as far as I am concerned both him and Janet need to resign from the council and find something else in life, they are both annoying and offer nothing to this town. They are both angree and hostile. But the one thing I do agree with is there is something wrong with our police department. If your a councilor and you cant see this with your own eyes then you are BLIND!! Dr. Moody conducted an investigation by interviewing Chief Garones #1 and #2 guys. He did not want any thing to do with this issue. There for he found nothing wrong. Chief Garone has been police chief for 30 +/- yrs. HE NEEDS TO GO!! we are losing years and years of talent because of this guy. There is no progress, or foward movement, when the milk gets sour its time to toss it out. In a matter of speaking the PD has turned into cottage cheese. Wake up counliors, do your jobs and fix this.
I have read as much as available on the matter of the Derry Police Department and the morale of the officers. Given the fact that lots of officers have left the department in a short term, it seems there is a problem.
I would personally collect information. I would tell each person that their name will NOT be associated with their comments.
If I were Councilor I would ask each officer who left for their opinions: Why did they leave? Was it a single issue or multiple issues? Is it a lack of leadership? Bad leadership? What can be done to make things better? And more.
After collecting those opinions, I would then speak with all the current Derry Police Officers individually.
I would then speak with the Police Union. And lastly, I would speak with the Chief.
Once all information was collected, I would remove names associated with comments. Then, take that raw data to the other Councilors for discussion.
All of this would be done on my time. No need for "outside" sources. I hardly ever think we need to go far to find the answers. The town has all the resources we need.
Nick Arancio
Brian,
If you hired a competent town manager you wouldn't need outside firms as consultants. Given that the outside firms are likely to identify savings far in excess of their fees, what's your problem? Would you spend $1 to save $5? If not, please withdraw your name from the state rep list, we have enough big spenders in Concord already.
It is great to see/read/and otherwise sense the passion of all the people who leave comments on this blog.
And I am sure many of you have spent more time living in Derry than me (5 years). So, perhaps you CAN qualify your personal statements about others.
But, maybe it is just better to stick with the issues. Maybe there is no need to make statements about other people on a personal level.
And, if you are like me, and think you can do a better job, then try running for office.
I ran for Town Council, and lost. I am now running for Representative for District 5 (Derry) and who knows if I will win or lose.
Eventually I will hold office, and then I will be able to test my theory. Maybe I can do a better job, maybe I can't.
I look forward to reading more about you, and your thoughts on what is best for Derry.
Nick Arancio
Anon 8:03,
maybe we should hire you! You are already assuming that we would be spending $1 for every $5 in savings. Do you know something the rest of us don't know?
Nick, I like your style and using local resources is the way to do it.
We have much talent in town and perhaps they would like to use it assisting the town by volunteering on a special committee.
I too am not in favor of hiring outsiders and getting legal opinions all the time.
Maybe its because I hate to waste money.
Sure our Chief has been there a long time, does that mean he is no longer leading?
Or is it, there are disgruntled workers stirring up the storm with its cheap gossip. The later can destroy morale in a heart beat and I would fire them pronto.
Yes, Brian as a matter of fact I do know something the rest of you (on the council) do not. I know how to manage.
Unfortunately, the mindset that pays a town manager $125k to manage a $40 million operation can never compete with the real world private sector that would pay $300-$400k for similar responsibilities. Of course, in the private sector you actually have to deliver results or you get fired.
And by the way, finding $5 in savings for every $1 spent would not be that tough but would require the backing of the town council. (Unlikely, the council makes friends by spending money not saving it.) As Poor Derry Taxpayer pointed out “Anyone with actual, successful business experience will not accept a civil job because of its inefficiencies and politics.”
To Poor Derry Taxpayer,Nick Arancio and Anonymous 8:36AM... why don't you three sit down with our town administrator and share all this wisdom! Don't try to make an appointment with him on Monday mornings or Friday afternoons...(for obvious reasons).
Inefficiencies were mentioned.Leadership starts from the top (not necessarily from the council).Could the t.a. already be working a 4 day week for $100+ a year? Do YOU three gentlemen work a 4 day week (32 hours) and get full pay and benefits?
If he actually "managed" the town 4 days a week that would be an improvement. We should measure his value not by his hours but by results. Have you seen any results? How's that commercial development going? Assessor’s office running like a fine watch? Contracts with the unions reflect the homework done on other town's deals with their unions? Deals with other towns extract all the value possible for our taxpayers? Thrift and efficiency are watchwords? Collaboration with the school system to save money?
Brian, Brian, Brian, when are you going to wake up and take your head out of…the sand? So you don’t think there is a morale problem at the PD. Is that because the Patrolman’s Union didn’t back you when you first ran for Council? You’re the first to complain about JF and KC and their “special interests” and in the next breath you do the exact same. So, if I were to tell you that for every dollar you pay me I will pay you five dollars back, you would decline the offer? For your sake I hope the Real Estate business picks up in a hurry! Nick is right on the button when he says it is wise to spend one dollar to save five.
It seems to me the Police Union has been trying to get a review of the issues at the PD for about three years now. In that same time they have negotiated and had three separate contracts. To try and link the morale issue to contract negotiations is a blatant lie and you know that. Try to be honest with yourself and the taxpayers of this town
You may recall that just prior to the DFD annexation of the EDFD, there was a very reputable fellow engaged, (against the wishes of some of the old time cronies), to conduct a partial department evaluation. For the most part, his recommendations were predictively kicked to the curb by vocal local yokels that have time and again proven they are in way over their heads.
Which begs the question, was the money wasted? I believe it was not. Due to the inherent requirements of an independent evaluation having been placed upon town and fire officials, to actually come clean on underlying motivations for certain wants and wishes, they were forced to either be up front or risk being exposed as, shall i say, duplicitous when their actions did not match their words.
I am thrilled that we managed to escape the unnecessary expense that was very nearly and dearly ours to pay had the new fire station boondoggle succeeded in slipping through.
I for one am STILL left wondering (wink, not really) what has become of the much ballyhooed, cost efficiencies and resulting savings foreseen by our fire department and by the for the most part, out to pasture croney pol's who fell in line behind this plan.......after applying their own brand of objective careful evaluation of course.
Sure, someone out there may very well now chime in that this is not just about savings it is about community safety. To which I suggest that we are extremely well covered for a community of our size. Not only in terms of equipment but in terms of staffing levels. If you don't buy this, check out the independent report i mentioned penned just a few years ago. Or better yet, apply your own good judgement and ask yourself whether or not you feel unsafe when you drive by anyone of our fire stations. Do they look empty? Does the apparatus look worn? Have there been situations where we as a community have lost lives and/or property due to equipment or personnel deficiencies? I didn't think so.
As for the police department. Maybe it is a predictable turn of phrase after just discussing the DFD, but for some reason, what comes to my mind is "where there's smoke, there's fire." If as has been widely reported, Moody conducted as cursory and shoddy a review as it appears, I would be embarrassed to refer to its findings, in total or in part, as supporting evidence to any argument AGAINST a review being necessary. In fact it strengthens the argument for an independent review. This community deserves and certianly pay's for more professionalism than what was delivered in Moody's half-hearted ( giving him the benefit of the doubt for a moment) and for sure half-baked attempt to get to the bottom of the matter.
I for one have found the rank and file of the DPD among the most professional and responsive departments in town. To the extent that they are a reflection upon our police chief's performance of his duty as leader I ask, "where's then beef?" On the other hand, it would not be the first time that a leader has benefited from the collective ability's and temperament of his/her charge. Somewhere, something is broken, given the chorus and actions that have been emanating out of the DPD.
Which takes us back to "where's there's smoke there's fire." Given that the DFD was busy this weekend with the hook and ladder being deployed to the Londonderry parade, I think we need to call in something other than the fire department to put these possible smoldering embers out. In fact, I think those darlings now seated on the town council would do us all a good turn by requiring that henceforth both the DFD and the DPD be INDEPENDENTLY evaluated on a regular basis, which incidentally is the norm for communities all across the country. By so doing at the very least our public safety officials could benefit from a broader sweep view of the world by learning about a solution to a problem that has worked elsewhere that could be conformed to our towns needs. In addition, it would serve to level the political playing field so that situations like the Moody report can not seep its way into the discussion as anything more than what it is i.e. sanitation department stock in trade.
Evaluation, accountability and results . These are concepts all successful organizations measure on a regular basis. For too long these concepts have been ignored, abused or obfuscated. Let's get independent professionals in to evaluate, account and measure the results from our town departments to permit corrective course changes to be made before we take on more water due to rough seas.
Anon 12:27, I agree. And extending your rough seas metaphor, I would add poor navigation even with the benefit of a zephyr beeze at your back.
Where does Gary "Severance" Stenhouse stand besides a dock?
anon 12:27,
Do you still have a copy of that old report? If so, I would like to post it on this blog!
BC, request a copy from George. Surely he can produce it in a flash given new post-annexation departmental efficiencies.
I bet he could even arrange to have it delivered by emergency vehicle via Windham or Chester if there is another parade or wedding occupying our departments time.
When is enough, enough?
Ed Garone has been police Chief long enough. He has set back our police department decades by his recent unwillingness to identify and deal with internal morale problems that have accounted for the recent departure of many senior members. While Mr. Garone would like to say “morale is a state of mind,” he fails to recognize that it has cost our community with the loss of over 100 years of experience it will not be able to get back. By these members departing and the internal issues not being handled, what have we gained? We have younger, non experienced personnel to answer our calls for help. Two lead detectives moved back to street patrol just before a case comes to trial? They must have been close to something! Mr. Stenhouse shouldn’t be looking to spend money on investigating what the problem is, but should be seeking a new chief. The Derry Police Department needs change. How about some community policing, a substation downtown, walking the beat, or a police dog. We will never have these with Mr. Garone.
We got rid of Manny, now we have Ed being Ed !
MOVE ON MR.GARONE, its time.
Anonymous 16/8/08 10:05 PM :
Derry may have sent a hook and ladder to Londonderry parade, but have you listened to how many times we send an ambulance. Mr.Coyle....are you out there.....tune in, our units go to Londonderry DAILY...Maybe thats why Kevin thinks they have such good staffing levels, and equipment to do their job ! BECAUSE DERRY IS SUBSIDIZING THEM ! DAILY.
Listen to a scanner, The Derry Fire Department sends ambulances and sometime fire trucks to Londonderry, Salem, Windham, Hamstead and Sandown ..without contract money coming in...do we see a return on those investments ?? Can Sandown and Hampstead return those "favors" by giving us ambulance service when we need one ! NO - THEY DON'T HAVE AMBULANCES...STOP THE MADNESS, CLOSE THE GATES! Or charge these towns. I am sick of getting passed on 102 by an ambulance going to Londonderry !
Kevin....can you hear me...! Londonderry is only as good as Derry makes it...!
Anonymous 16/8/08 10:05 PM :
Derry may have sent a hook and ladder to Londonderry parade, but have you listened to how many times we send an ambulance. Mr.Coyle....are you out there.....tune in, our units go to Londonderry DAILY...Maybe thats why Kevin thinks they have such good staffing levels, and equipment to do their job ! BECAUSE DERRY IS SUBSIDIZING THEM ! DAILY.
Listen to a scanner, The Derry Fire Department sends ambulances and sometime fire trucks to Londonderry, Salem, Windham, Hamstead and Sandown ..without contract money coming in...do we see a return on those investments ?? Can Sandown and Hampstead return those "favors" by giving us ambulance service when we need one ! NO - THEY DON'T HAVE AMBULANCES...STOP THE MADNESS, CLOSE THE GATES! Or charge these towns. I am sick of getting passed on 102 by an ambulance going to Londonderry !
Kevin....can you hear me...! Londonderry is only as good as Derry makes it...!
Anon 9:27
Why all the lies???
Sandown and Hampstead both have licensed ambulances. Yes, they are a volunteer squad, but if called upon, they can and will transport patients. They already do it in their community very often because their private ambulance is hardly ever available.
As for fire trucks, Derry receives assistance from area departments on a regular basis. This is a nationally accepted practice called mutual aid.
http://www.hampsteadnh.us/fire/rescue_1.htm
No website available for Sandown. Call them if you'd like... 887-4806.
How about some community policing, a substation downtown, walking the beat, or a police dog. We will never have these with Mr. Garone.
We got rid of Manny, now we have Ed being Ed !
MOVE ON MR.GARONE, its time.
In my opinion this is a typical morale wrecking statement.
You have no foundation for your position other than, no substation, police dog and has been Chief too long.
It is talk like this, causing exaggerated claims of morale problems due to the administration at DPD.
I would love to say "Your fired !" for making unfounded comments.
Is the countdown clock until Coyle and/or Fairbanks term(s) end?
Anon 10:12
The only truth in what you wrote was "They already do it in their community very often because their private ambulance is hardly ever available". Oh yeah and, ("As for fire trucks, Derry receives assistance from area departments on a regular basis. This is a nationally accepted practice called mutual aid.") I would be willing to call this a bit of an over statement. I don't call a 90-10 split a regular basis. The funny thing is, you sound like an ex FD Employee with an axe to grind. LOL!
Anon 5:28
First of all, I have never worked for a municipality.
Second, I was just pointing out the facts; something that often gets left out of these blogs and even some newspapers.
I'm glad you got a laugh though.
Anon 10:05..
The DFD ambulance service has run almost 1900 calls since the beginning of this year. They have been to Londonderry a grand total of 33 times out of those calls. Hardly an everyday occurence.
As far as mutual aid, those types of contracts are not "money specific" contracts. They are designed as equipment/manpower specific. Those agreements are in place to help bolster the needs of surrounding communities when specific incidents require more manpower or equipment for the safety of the firefighters on scene.
You'll certainly be happy to know that Londonderry immediately sends a Medic unit to a confirmed structure fire in the town of Derry. No questions asked. It's automatic. The same as a confirmed structure fire in Londonderry gets a Derry Medic dispatched immediately. The system works extremely well.
You mention return on investment. There was a fire the other night on Walnut Hill Rd. Derry responded with it's full compliment. This "Mutual Aid" thing brought in a Rescue from Auburn, a Medic from Londonderry, a Truck and Engine from Salem, , an Engine from Hudson, a Tanker from Hampstead, and an Engine from Windham.
Return on investment? No one on that fireground was injured and that house didn't burn to the ground. Return on investment indeed.
Members of the coucil and members of the public, Please review this video and think twice when we talk bad about our firefighters, this scared the hell out of me, I cant belive what these men and women go through. God bless them they are worht the world to me and my family. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1975040321393374985&hl=en
First I agree the job has its dangers, much like a policeman, roofer, steelworker etc.
One thing to remember is they all are aware of this going in and are compensated very well for the inherent dangers involved.
Its people such as anon 8:07 that give them sainthood and way too many benefits.
Lets not give them sainthood, they are doing their job and that is that.
anon 12:17: I think that you hit the nail on the head when you said that they are compensated very well for the inherent dangers involved. The idea is that people out there don't think that they should be compensated as they have been. I don't think that anyone is looking to claim sainthood. I actually watched the video and it only drove it home more why some jobs pay more than others. It's funny that some people without a background in the Police/fire service have an opinion on how many Cops/firefighters we should have. What happens if the studies are done and both departments are under staffed?
What happens if the studies are done and both departments are under staffed?
I once had 5 employees working for me because according to studies that was the norm for my size and volume business.
One day a worker got a new job rather quickly and we were stuck with 4 employees. weeks went by before we got the ad out and I was interviewing.
Suddenly I realized we are doing the same volume with 4 employees and the bottom line was better. We worked with 4 for 6 months and another worker gave notice. I deliberately hesitated put the ad out, blah blah.
After a couple weeks I noticed we were getting all our our usual work done and our bottom line was even better.
It turns out my employees made up for the missing employees by working more efficiently.
Needless to say they all got big raises and we worked happily ever-after.
What does a soldier in Afganistan make in pay? Let's supplement the pay of our Derry soldiers until they are amking $80k per year. They take more risks in a day than firefighters do in a year.
While it is true that soldiers do make far less than anyone in the private sector and should be rewarded with better pay, I think that we are missing something on the wages our firefighters make. Since reading in the Derry News that a firefighter makes $80K a year I thought that I would look into it to see for myself. On derryfire.com they have copies of their contract with the town. I couldn't find anywhere where a firefighter was making $80K a year. This leads me to think that wherever that figure came from it should've said that it included overtime as part of the annual wages. How can we fault someone for working overtime when there's a need? To say that the average firefighter brings home $80k is nothing more than a lie. To weigh risk vs reward between a soldier in combat and a firefighter is unfair because the soldier in combat risks more than any job on the outside. You can put another spin on it if you want and say that a firefighter during a fire risks more than a soldier during peace time. The truth is, both are out there doing their jobs to protect us when there is a need.
poor derry taxpayer: Is it a question though of efficiency or safety that we're dealing with? If you were running a sub shop and had 5 employees but you were able to get by with 3 OK. When you're talking about the amount of firefighters or police needed operate at a call, it's a ton different than running a sub shop or other business. On the surface it seems the same but it isn't. Are these really some of the areas that we are looking to cut corners in? It's going to take a death of an Officer, Firefighter, or citizen that could've been saved for all of this to end. It's sad but true.
Most cops probably make more than firemen. They have so many details. But that may change if they start hiring private companies for traffic control at construction sites.
anon 10.39
I see firemen and police just standing around when on the scene.
Example: construction sites, crime scenes,accidents, fires. I see this on the news on TV
i never see private workers standing around when they are doing their jobs.
Example: construction workers, tow truck drivers at accidents, workers repairing vandalism, removing burned buildings.
It has something to do with earning their income or face getting fired, in the private industry.
A good spin is the remote chance of a loss of life by not having that extra fire or police man. Sounds good so maybe we should add extra then there will never ever be a loss of life. If there is then we add 2 more to the payroll.
All in the name of safety.
The money that is spent on fire departments, can buy new homes for people that lose theirs in a fire and have no insurance. Still have money left over.
If people have a problem with the amount of money a policeman or fireman can make because of overtime, then the Town should hire more of them to cover vacancies on straight time. If they don't like the idea of more employees, then stop complaining about overtime. Besides, I'm sure it's more cost effective for the Town to have fewer employees and pay overtime to fill vacancies.
anon 10:39, thanks for your concern, but i for one am willing to take my chances, it is sleepy derry nh after all, not exactly a dangerous spot even on it's worst day. please give us all a break and save introducing your debate default nuclear scenario of someone getting killed. we have heard it all before from the fire department. a convenience store clerk has a hugely more dangerous job than either a policeman or fireman, statistics bear this out. as for your contention that firemen in derry don't make in excess of $80k, i suggest you ask brian what they make. he was part of the excesses that were approved year after year.
anon 11:20 bring on the private flagmen, there is nothing wrong with competitive biding. besides, i don't think it right that towns kids see the occasional derry cop smoking while on a detail, sets a bad example.
anon 8:12,
You must have me confused with someone else. I have been a councilor for only 4 years. When I was first elected I had voted on 1 round of contracts for every union because Russ Marcoux wanted all contracts negotiated at the same time. Most of the things in the present contracts have been there for a longer time than I have been a councilor. Nice try though!
Also, In past posts, I have been vocal about private flagman vs. making an ordinance mandating policeman must be hired. ( The police union did not like when it was posted here either.)
I notice the Derry News hotline today had a post about the DPD morale problem.
It was a rebuttal made last week by a disgruntled employee, I guess.
anon 8:12: So you are telling me that you are willing to take your chances burning to death in a fire or not living through a medical emergency because you think that firefighters and police make too much money. It has nothing to do with spin when people talk of the chances of someone being killed during an incident. I would love for Brian to tell you like it is on the base salary of a fireman. PLEASE BRIAN! The number is inflated because the figure does not state that overtime is included.
The base salary is not 80K for the avg fireman in Derry.
Lund did not state where he got his numbers from? Did he include all roll ups? Meaning Sick time, vacation time, overtime, health care costs,etc..? He never stated that. Please remember that Howie is an officer of the Derry tax payers or ADT. The whole group ( officers) are made up of the old East Derry fire district and are upset that the fire depts have been combined. They have been doing the same thing year in and year out. I'm willing to bet that Mr. Lund even decides to run for town councilor in March.
Now having said that, Mr Lund's vision of the Derry Fire Dept could be much different than everyone elses. He may want a bare bones fire dept and maybe thinks call fireman would be better? who knows... Thats he's right... Lets just not distort info.
Police Officer starting hourly rate = $20.34 X 40 hrs = $813.60/wk
Firefighter starting hourly rate = $17.85 X 42 hrs = $749.70
There you go!
Firefighters start out at 39K.
and Police at 37.5K
* fireman works a 42hr/Wk
copied from derryfire.com
"According to the proposed contract that was rejected by the council, firefighters in Derry who chose not to use the town's health insurance would receive $10,720.68 a year for the family plan or $7,941.24 a year for a two-person plan to be used toward obtaining their own insurance.
According to the firefighters' current contract, Derry firefighters with more than 12 years of service earn 312 hours of vacation per year. At 25 years, firefighters receive 504 hours of vacation per year."
Lets ask the average working person about their benefits.
Lets find an average working man that hangs around all day waiting for a fire. No fires then they can sleep and go to their second job later in the day.
BC
If you mulyiply the rate advertised on the PD website X 40 X 52 you get $42307.20, not $37500
anon 9:43,
yes, you are correct! 820X 52 = 42,640.
anon 9:39,
If you think that its so easy to be a fireman- Why didn't you become one?
I'm still trying to figure-out what jobs in the public world would compare to either fireman or policeman. How can anyone make the right comparisons?
Anon 939, you should compare the cost that the Town would have to pay if the employee chose to take the insurance vs the cost of not taking the insurance and receiving a buyout.
Did a little light go on for you? It would cost a heck of a lot more if all Town employees decided to take the insurance.
Firefighters in Derry work 24 hr shifts. There is no time to go to another job. Also, firefighters in 2008 respond to all sorts of emergencies, not just fires.
...Soooo police are actually paid more and work less than firefighters?
24 hour shifts = working 1.66 days a week.
Why not have a second job, its possible with this schedule.
Years ago most all firemen had second jobs now most do not.
Years ago fireman's pay was meager because they rarely had to do anything.
Now they go to most car accidents.
As far as the health insurance they opt out if their spouse has a job and get the insurance there. The money paid to them is gravy as far as I am concerned. This is why they take it.
Why not offer no insurance. If they want it then its available at a group rate. They pay of course.
As far as someone should become a fireman because it pays well is nonsense.
Not everyone can take the hanging around doing nothing.
Nonsense is saying that most firefighters now don't work second jobs when most do. It is actually cheaper for the town to allow them to opt out of the insurance and have them take the buy back. It's a nice shot to say that most days are spent standing around doing nothing. The more that I read on this blog the more I'm starting to think what Brian said is true. The people complaining about the fire department are the same group of East Derry supporters that never moved on. Derry has the same number of firefighters now as they did when both departments combined. I find it funny how some people can discount what an emergency is. They can do that because they've never been in that situation. It's time for some to grow up and move on with their lives. Cutting jobs, wages, and benefits isn't going to put a dime back in your pockets. Our taxes are going to be the same as they are right now or higher in the future. Take the time to research the contract the firefighters have with the town like I did. There isn't anything about an $80K salary to be found in there. I know that the number sounds better when you have an axe to grind but it simply isn't true.
I wish that I could go and ride along with the PD and FD. I know that there must be days when nothing happens and don't get wrong, that's a good thing. I think that it would be fair to see what they do before we can say they are just standing around doing nothing. I wonder if the town would ever allow that?
anon 11:18,
Its sort of like Insurance. You pay the premiums every month and some complain about them, and then when you have an accident or someone dies, you feel you made a good investment. Its only until you use it do you truly appreciate what you have.
Now having said that, it comes down to what kind of services do the people of Derry want or expect. Remember you always get what you pay for.
BC:
I don't think that you can compare Police and Fire to any job in the outside world. How can someone put a price tag when there's a fire/ medical emergency, or when things go bump in the night? In the perfect world there wouldn't be a need for either department but this is far from a perfect world.
Brian, is what anon 11:18 said true that Derry has the same total number of firefighters as it did when there was two departments?
anon 11:45,
I believe that to be true. Part of the negotiation before the two fire dept's were combined was that the east derry firefighters continue to have a job when they were combined. That was the agreement between the East Derry fire commissioners and town of Derry at that time.
I also agree with BC. It is the former supporters of the EDFP, now members of the ADT, who are upset with the fire department.
I also beleive that it is time for them to move on. I wish there was a "payment calculator" that would show what someones taxes would cost in various communities. Then people could accurately compare what they pay and receive.
People could be paying the same taxes in Chester or Hampstead and for far less services.
I know, I know... then they would complain to the Selectmen in that town because they pay high taxes and don't receive close to the same services they got in Derry.
Some people will never be happy.
Why doesn't the ADT question the spending of the school district? They are the entity costing us the most money.
I’m not a member of ADT, but I do know that the Derry Fire Department over charges for their ambulance services. My son has been taken by ambulance on 3 different occasions, here is how they went.
The first was from my house in Derry to Parkland. The Derry ambulance was on a call so the Windham Town ambulance, covering for Derry, transported him to Parkland. NO CHARGE, no insurance payment, never even saw a bill.
The second time was when my son was transported from the Verizon Wireless Center to Elliot Hospital in Manchester by a Manchester ambulance. Again, NO CHARGE, no insurance payment, never saw a bill.
The third time my son was transported from my Derry house to Parkland Hospital, about 4 miles. My insurance was billed over $500 which they paid, now the town wants to sue me for $52 they claim is past due, yet they CAN NOT produce an invoice with the services provided and charges. One would think that with the high taxes we pay here in Derry, the $500 from my insurance would be enough to cover the ambulance cost since it is part of my tax bill.
Brian, who is paying for the NEW ambulance the fire department is getting? Who is paying the salaries of the personnel? It’s the Derry taxpayers. Then when we need it, you bill us again for it. Something needs to be done with the inflated Fire budget….. get rid of the ambulance and contract with a private company.
Then again, a life might be saved with the inflated budget so it’s ok because you just can’t put a price on life. Let’s put a Derry Hospital and fire station on every corner so we can all be safe. The “small” amount in tax increase is worth it. I've heard it all before.
" Derry has the same number of firefighters now as they did when both departments combined." ...so much for the B.S. that there would be efficienciesin combining the departments. Why again did we do it?
"Take the time to research the contract the firefighters have with the town like I did. There isn't anything about an $80K salary to be found in there." No kidding? $80,000 is the average payment to firefighters not the listed salaries. Think overtime, think lots of over time justified by the fact that the healthcare package is so expensive it's cheaper for the town to pay formassive quantities of overtime rather than hire the right number of employees. You're looking in the wrong place, you won't find in $80 K. salariesin the contract you will find solid Gold benefits packages.
11:40 You and I put a price tag on safety all the time. Do you have a sprinkler system inside your house? Why not? Do you drive the largest most crash resistant car made in the world? Why not? Do we have fire hydrants near every home in town? Stop hiding behind the safety issue it's a scare tactic.
I wish there was a "payment calculator" that would show what someones taxes would cost in various communities.
When I tell people what I pay for real estate taxes I have to use smelling salts to revive them.
Now its true these folks are not from Derry this is why the surprise, I suppose.
"I wish there was a "payment calculator" that would show what someones taxes would cost in various communities. Then people could accurately compare what they pay and receive."
11:54 AM, your wish is my command:
Savings by not living in Derry assuming a $300,000 house:
Windham $1785
Salem $2652
Auburn $2502
Chester $1323
Sandown $48
Nashua $1395
Manchester $1644
Portsmouth $1713
Concord $726
Hampstead $1053
Pelham $1872
Raymond $1365
Source New Hampshire's Department of Revenue Administration (2007 numbers)
Effort required 4.6 minutes
Maybe you should join the ADT? And by the way the ADT does question school expendatures. Come join us.
anon 1:03: still haven't paid that bill yet huh? More typical B.S. from your side. You never saw a bill from the other two services because they never their employees didn't do their jobs. The deal with Manchester is really a shocker because Rockingham Amb would've already had you in collections. This story is getting a little tired though. If they can't produce a bill how are they going to take you to court?
Anon 1:03
I challenge you to post your bill that you received from the Town.
I don't think this story is true at all. Post it for all to see. You can obviously black-out any personal demographics.
Prove me wrong.
Anon 2:28
Maybe you should start shopping for a new home in one of these communities.
1:29 now that you have broken it down I understand its the cost of health insurance and if we had more employees with no overtime it would cost more than what we pay now with the overtime.
Well how is this for a simple solution from a simple minded person. cut way back on the health insurance. Let them pony up if they want the insurance.
Every day the self employed pony up for their own insurance and pay twice the amount to FICA 15+%.
People at jobs often have to pony up for flimsy insurance, have little vacation time and when they get their Derry tax bill, pay it just to support others with a lavish life style.
This is the real world and DFD/DPD should be part of it.
The taxes saved by living in those towns posted by 2:28 is depressing. However to get me by I think to myself, "they must lose many lives because of poor fire and police depts. All the kids must be dumb too.I rather pay Derry's taxes and be safe and educated"
The efficiencies in merging the two departments first were to get both departments under one command structure. The second ended up doing away with an extra Fire Chief and Assistant Chief. A group of bozo's decided to fork over large sums of money to both of those guys in an act that was nothing but criminal but that's another story. We already saved a $180k by dropping that dead weight right there if you go by the numbers of some. Bringing the two departments under 1 roof to ensure the best possible service to the citizens of Derry. It also became cost effective not to end up in court every couple of months with each department pleading its case. Look, riding around with a Commissioner plate on your vehicle was cool. I bet your family loved seeing you wear the badge at family events and around town. The truth is it's OVER, move on!
Anon 4:19
If you look carefully, you'll see that some ex-commissioners still drive around with "commissioner" plates because they must think it's cool...even though the district doesn't exist!
Thanks for the "payment calculator". Did you ever think that the reason why all those places you listed were cheaper to live in than Derry might have something to do with the schools? You can take Sandown off that list because if the other hero had paid his $52 a couple of years back it would've been cheaper to live in Derry for you. You can cross Manchester, Nashua, Concord, and maybe Portsmouth off that list due to sheer volume of population. Derry has better services than the rest hands down. Some of them don't even provide full time services. Chester doesn't even have a cop on duty most nights. Some other towns have 1 on duty. Brian was right, you get what you pay for.
One of my sons lives in Manchester. He moved there when paying Derry taxes was killing him while trying to raise his children.
He has a similar priced home and pays less taxes.
He has trash pick up which includes yard debris, appliances etc. He don't even know where the dump is.
They have gas plumbed right to their home, have water and sewerage too.
Oh, recently they had a small flood at the house due to a broken pipe and the MFD came right out and stopped the leak, n/c.
Then a neighbor sent the MFD over because he was burning dinner on the grille and the smoke was going into the neighbors yard. n/c
They also have school my grandkids go to and they do not seem any dumber than my grandkids that go to Derry schools.
He got rear ended and the police showed up right away and asked if he needed ambulance service. n/c
Some one in Manchester must be suffering because of the lower taxes hence poorer services but I just do not know who.
Anon 4:33 Here are the saving after taking out the education side. You can not blame our whole problem on the schools.
$300k house annual saving vs Derry:
Windham $1389
Salem $948
Auburn $1719
Chester $942
Sandown $1290
Nashua $273
Manchester -$60 (we are cheaper!)
Portsmouth $27
Concord $327
Hampstead $1695
Pelham $1125
Raymond $951
Londonderry $978
Our taxes are more expensive than 12 of the 13 surrounding/comparable towns even after you take out the schools.
Everyone always blames PD and FD on this blog.
Well here's a reality check people... there are other Town employees too.
Administrative Staff
Administrative Support Staff
Public Works
Parks and Rec
IT
Teachers
Here's some items to cut that aren't mission critical and I think could be cut.
Source: FY09 Budget
Parks: $1,037,046
Recreation: $577,870
Cable $212,459
Taylor Library: $182,913
Total: $2,010,288
"I don't use the parks."
"My son doesn't play rec. basketball. He plays pop warner football and I have to pay."
"I don't go to the Taylor Library. I go to the Public Library because it offers more."
"I don't watch cable access tv17. I watch the meetings online and read the notices on the bulletin board at the DMC."
I guess my point here is that everyone can find departments that we don't think the Town should spend money on. But we do spend money on them and not everyone has to like it. So get over it. Stop complaining. There must be a reason why you moved to Derry and are still residing here. It's not all that bad. If you think it is, reasearch another community and MOVE THERE.
I feel much better now... Thank you.
anon 5:22
Public services still apply to most of that list. Windham, Auburn, Chester, Sandown, and Hampstead shouldn't even be close to us in taxes because they have nothing for services. Windham is a little better than the rest of those I listed. Million dollar homes out there with now 5 firefighters and only a couple of officers a shift. Windham just bumped up their staffing because of overtime and they will end up doing it again. The people in those towns should be pulling their hair out that they are within $2000 of Derrys taxes! Volunteer services aren't the answer either before we start that stuff. It all goes back to getting what you pay for.
People have an issue with the PD/FD because they are the most visible of all public services. Yeah, you get someone throwing a fit every now and then because they see a public works person at Dunkin Donuts or someone has to stand in line at town hall for something. There are people in this world that for whatever reason you just can't please.
anon 7:04,
Just an FYI. The cable 212K is an enterprise fund. Water and Sewer are as well. These 3 dept do not get their funding through general taxation, they are raised via user fees.
So cutting cable will not do anything to allivate taxes.
Just thought that I would share that info.
704
Thank you for your research but you can cross the Taylor Library off your list of cuts as well. Brents wife is a Trustee for the Taylor Library so that won't happen. It's nice that he can vote on the budget for her though. Holy conflict of interest Brian!
BC,
Could you tell all the nice folks here on the blog page who the town official was that fell asleep in the cemetary on cemetary road during a bad snow storm a few years ago.
I herd this story at the country store this past winter.
When this fine official woke up and he could not move the vehicle IN TEN INCHES OF SNOW, he had to be pulled out by the town plow truck.
Oh yes he was sitting in a town vehicle on the towns dime . So much for working 40 hrs.
Thank you mr. plowman for saving my life. GEE WIZ SOMEONE MUST REMEMBER THIS STORY IF ITS TRUE. JUST TRYING TO FIND OUT.
The next time the DFD has to pick up a family mamber of MR. LUnd maybe they should give them the PINTO treatment, rather then the BMW. I think he has needed the DFD plenty of times in the past. I am pretty sure they got the roles royce treatment. He didnt seem to complain then.
anon, 10:30.
I don't know whom you are talking about? Want to share with the rest of us?
Anon 10:53 11:04 11:16
You must be having a rough night out there. Chewing on what is being said here on the Blog and getting all worked up.
Please remove the hostility you will find yourself beginning to calm down.
Those points you feel are so important will become less and less.
Now, your posts, $68k is more than the median income.
More importantly, like I always tell my kids, its not what we earn, its how we spend it. This will make the difference in our finances.
10 calls a day is better than I thought however it has been said DFF work 1.5 days at a time so I guess this comes down to one call ever 3.6 hours. This is not acceptable in the business world.
In summary, take deep breaths, focus on things you can change, watch what you spend, remove the chip from your shoulder.
once again I agree with Poor Derry Taxpayer. Must be tough walking around with that size chip on your shoulder. You folks are your own worst enemies when you open your mouths.Anon 10:38 that comment comes awfully close to last year's threat made to the counselors regarding calling 911.
Anon 10:53 stop feeling sorry for yourself. You might want to check out the average income of the people who are paying your salary. It's a hell of a lot less than you're making. Yes you may have to work these jobs to avoid foreclosure but guess what? They're well over 100 Derry taxpayers who have already gone through foreclosure.
Anon 11:16 before you look down your nose at the Manchester school system you might want to check out the standardized test scores from all the towns in our region. I think you'll find it illuminating.
I wondered how long it would take before we saw a post from a firefighter/police officer up here. I actually thought that it would be long before now with all the attacks they take. Take the hint fellas, some of the towns people don't want you. They don't respect you or what you do is what they are saying. Just keep doing your jobs and stop reading the paper and blogs. Some people will never respect what you do.
Lets keep in mind that blogs allow us freedom of speech and expression. It can gauge reaction from the public and I see both supporters and non-suppoters in this type forum. You do have the right not to look at this or any blog for that matter, however it is sometimes better to know the feelings of some to gain some insight to what is being said in the community.
1:32 Who says we don't respect them? I can respect them for a job well done, I can respect them for taking on a dangerous job, and I can still oppose emptying the town coffers into their pockets. We should have the number of firefighters and police officers that we can afford. We should pay them the market wage. I can think of no reason that our firefighters should have salaries or benefits that are out of line with firefighters in surrounding communities. Respect and proper town managementare not incompatible. If we paid them all $200,000 dollars a year would that show more respect? How about $300,000?
To any firefighter or police officer that have read this blog (and comments from some of the public)who have felt degrade, be-littled or just plain old disgusted, you must take it for face value.
There will always be people who dislike you, think you are lazy and think you make way to much money. It is the same throughout the country. They nickel and dime your contracts, thinking you are over paid and under worked. Some people just have an axe to grind and targeting public employees is the easiest way to do this.
Most of the public does not realize the importance of your jobs. They only realize it when you are needed, and even then they will probably find something to complain about. Don't let them get to you. It may be harder to turn a cheek to their rants, just remember where it comes from.
They complain about your pay, but somethings are hard to put a price tag on. These people who complain never have to worry about being shot during a "routine" traffic stop. They never have to worry about going into a fire that we all know is very dangerous. The same members of the public (who always complain)never have to worry about being exposed to people with HIV, seeing children neglected or worse, seeing horrific car accidents, never have to deal with violent drug dealers or murders at their jobs. They expect someone else to do that. Guess what, you men and women of the DFD and DPD are those people. I want to thank you! Without you dedicated individuals who spend years in school, who train for the worst daily, our community would not be what it is today. A wonderful community to raise a family!(They have compared working as a police officer or firefighter to that of a sub shop worker, come on...that is plain old ridiculous)
I have read this blog for some time, I watch all the councilor meetings. I try to stay on top of things in town....and some of the comments from some people just boggle my mind. Being an "East Derry" resident, I for years have watched the fire departments bicker and fight. Having one department is the best thing to happen to our fire dept. With one department you all operate the same. Same training, same equipment, everyone works together for the common good of all the residents of Derry. I am a firm believer that the only people who are complaining about the fire department are the same individuals who had a vested in East Derry Fire Dept. They were part of the "club"....now they are on the outside looking in, and they don't like it. I used to go to the East Derry Fire meetings and I would sit and laugh to myself at some of things that went on there. They used to practically give money away, all under the mis guided assumption that "the people want it this way". Well most of the people in town at the time didn't even know Derry had two fire depts. Small town politics cannot work in Derry like that (our community is too large), that is why we elect people to run the day to day operations of the town. But enough about that....that is ancient history as far as I am concerned.
Back to my point, members of the DPD and DFD, the people here that baulk at your contracts, think you are over paid and lazy are just a small voice in the community. I for one appreciate all you do! My neighbors and friends appreciate all you do! You deserve everything you get! (money, benefits, etc) because you have worked hard to get them, and you continue to work hard everyday for the residents of our town. Some of us residents really do appreciate each and every one of you!
So remember, don't let the voice of a few get you upset, turn the other cheek, hold your head up high and walk proud in our town!
No, 6:03 somethings are NOT hard to put a price tag on. Londonderry figherfighters are just as brave as ours as are Nashua firefighters. That line is just an excuse for poor management. You say they deserve everything they get. Why not pay them each $1 million?
You make this a personal attach on them but no one is attacking them. That's a strawman. The question is how many firefighters we need and what is the appropriate compensation for them. NO ONE is questioning their dedication or bravery and you degrade them by suggesting we are. You suggest that there is an element in town that think little of them. That's both untrue and has got to crush their morale.
3:59
Everything negative that you have posted about them shows that you don't respect them. Something about standing around doing nothing or As Poor Derry Taxpayer pointed out “Anyone with actual, successful business experience will not accept a civil job because of its inefficiencies and politics.” You guys don't even have a little respect for what the FF/PD do for a living. They've already said that you shouldn't be paid beyond some of the under trained and under staffed departments around you. They don't care about you. You guys are idiots for taking a contract like the one that you agreed to with the town. When the town offered you money and benefits, you should've just said no. No, you don't want to take care of my family. You don't want to make the best deal that you can for the risks you take. You are all worth less than what you are getting. Listen to them, that is what they are telling you. They don't care that you might not make it home after your shift because that just doesn't happen in small town Derry. Fire doesn't burn through the floor infront of front doors in Derry allowing you to fall into the the basement full of flames. That stuff doesn't happen in Derry! Respect, I think not! You guys never had to come right out and say that you didn't respect them. Post after post, it speaks loud enough.
For those who continually suggest that if we don't like it we should move, No. This is our town as much as yours and we will continue to fight against the incompetent administration your friends deliver.
4:19 We did not raise the East Derry issue, but I'm delighted that you seem to recognize that it was never about economies but always about control and power. Try a direct approach like : "we lied, we won, tough luck, move on" we would have much more respect for you then.
10:56, you are babbling. Take a deep breath and think. Are you suggesting that our firemen have "actual, successful business experience?" Will Donald Trump please get off the ladder truck?
"They've already said that you shouldn't be paid beyond some of the under trained and under staffed departments around you." Let's see, not sure that I have read that... please give a reference. (I hope you are not making that up.) Also which departments are understaffed? More clarification is needed please, much more.
No, I don't blame them at all for taking a big fat contract. "Would you walk away from a fool and his money?" I blame the people we elect as Councilors and the incompetents they hire as administrators.
Sorry, I'd discuss the rest of your post but it is one non-sequitur after another. We appreciate our public servants and would like them paid as other town’s pay theirs.
To the bloggers who constantly complain about Garone and Klauber...
How about taking a good hard look at our T.A. Stenhouse! What's he doing to collect the big bucks? Let's look at this. Does HE put in 40 hours a week?(a short day on Monday's and Friday's or are those his 'summer hours')
Calculate this divide it by his bottom line and what do you have? A very well compensated T.A. for Derry!Maybe if we had a more attentive T.A. things in the p.d. and f.d. would get some needed directions. Isn't that what he's suppose to do? What make you think that the morale is only low at the p.d.?
2:06 I respectfully disagree. We want an A+ person to run a $40 million enterprise and we dig around looking for a retread willing to live in Derry who will work for $125K (if I recall). Might a really sharp graduate of the Kennedy School of Public Management be acquired? We might only keep him/her for a few years but a 1% improvement is worth $400,000 to us. Back to Poor Derry Taxpayers comment about acquiring skilled people, I think it is worth a try. We need to aim higher, higher than Stenhouse, higher than new WalMarts, higher than the performance of our current school system.
10:12
All of Derry WON when all that BS was put to bed between East Derry and Derry. The only ones still complaining are the ones that can no longer live out a fantasy playing on the fire trucks and pretending to be someone. The department is efficient now that it is one unit with one voice and one direction. Services were expanded and the entire staff is able to train as a single unit. It is run by people (get this) with a background in the fire service! The fire service isn't a hobby folks! You can't provide a dynamic service like the one that we have in Derry with one meeting a month with a puppet Fire Chief. We WON, you bet your butt we did. Not for a self serving reason but for the entire town.
No, 7:44 It seems in this post alot of people are putting a price tag on things. The current contract was negotiated with the town, it wasn't just given to the the firefighters of Derry. But at every turn, you and others like you complain about what they make, the vacation time, the staffing levels, etc. How are the brave men and women of the DFD suppossed to feel. I bet they feel un-appreciated, un-wanted and un-liked by the people in this blog who write what they write about the fire dept. All fire fighters are just as brave as the next, no matter where you work, point is Derry firefighters are publically ridiculed in this blog sometimes by certain responses from the public. As far as staffing and contracts, you cannot compare every fire dept in the state to each other, each city and town is different.
Health insurance cost, the fire fighters should get the best coverage. Cancer in fire fighters is a major concern because of the stuff they are exposed to in fires. They are not just sitting in an office, worrying about the guy in the next cubicle that has the sniffles. Plus the whole insurance buy back thing saves the town money!
The so called vacation time, well there are no sick days in the DFD so if they get sick or are injured for a short time, they have to use "vacation" time. Plus those days off increase as long as they are employed here, why not? Why not reward those members of the DFD who stay here and protect our town. The longer they work here, the more experience and seasoned they get. The better they are so a little benefit to stay is worth it.
I never said that the residents of this town thought they were not brave or not respected, just not appreciated by some. How can they feel appreciated by reading some of the comments posted here.
You talk about staffing, what is the proper staffing level? Seems to be right here in Derry. Any less and the resdients of the town would suffer.
7:44 It's time to enter the real world. We have to put prices on things. These prices are called "contracts". If we paid them each $500,000 do you think their self-esteem would be better? Sure let's do that, let's screw the taxpayers so that the firefighters feel better about themselves.
You say we cannot compare one town to another? Why not? Are the lives of Derry firefighters worth nmore than Nashua firefighters? You make these statements and don't explain or back them up.
You base your statement about staffing on what specific knowledge? Perhaps we should engage someone to look into that, someone who doesn't pull opinions out of thin air.
Ah yes 7:01 you know what is best for us. Those folks in East Derry didn't know what was good for them. Silly people... happily paying consistently lower taxes, taking pride in their fire dept, volunteering to build fire stations at a fraction of the town's cost, raising extra money through cookouts and sale of Christmas trees. We had local heroes, now we have employees. Why doesn't it feel like we won?
Oh yes, I was not part of the EDFD but your comment about people "pretending to be someone" kind of says it all (about you). Do you pretend to be someone?
9pm
I know that I struck a nerve with you and I'm sorry. It wasn't meant as a shot towards those who actually did some good things. My shot was towards those who insist on trying to stick it to some of the very firefighters they supported. I'm not trying to be anyone special. I don't have an East Derry Commissioner plate on my vehicle or the badge to go along with it. Those are the shots I'm taking. Those are the people that screwed good folks like you out of money by forking over loads of cash to Nadeau. The town of Derry should've chased him for every cent of that money he was given. The local heros that you speak of are still there and in greater number. Only a few on this board and in the public have made the choice to consider them employees. Bring the Christmas trees and sell them for MDA. I'll be first in line to buy one. Cookout, I'll bring the grill! Those same local heros that had the East Derry patch are the same boys that the ADT are trying to stick it to now.
8:49
Checkout NFPA 1710. That should answer a few questions for you and 7:44.
Here's a link...
http://www.derryfire.com/members.html
Click on "Firefighters CBA". That's the contract DFD Firefighters are working under right now. I challenge anyone here to find in that document where these firefighters make $80,000 salaries and get 12 weeks worth of vacation time.
It's right there in black and white. Maybe the language is somehow different in Mr. Lund's world.
OK, anon 11:30 … Would you like me to submit a public information request for all firefighter's W2 forms from last year and post them here and in the paper? BC will you allow the post if I do?
I bet Mr. Lund knows the meaning of the word “disingenuous”. You do not seem to know it.
Come on, make my day.
I know this is ot but since we're talking about taxpayer monies it was reported in the Eagle Tribune that Derry just hired 50 teachers for the new school year and according to the article "the number is unprecedented". Was the turnover that high last year or are these new hires? As far as I knew, enrollments down; residency is down; and kindergarten was to be added with no additional hires. I say stuff those kids 30 per classroom. Don't get me wrong; I just love those little tykes and no siree, I don't want to see them suffer any. This town's starting to scare me (and no, I'm not moving).
I find it very hard to fault someone for working overtime to earn extra money. It's not as if we taxpayers are giving them extra money in addition to their base salary just for the fun of it. They have to work the hours to earn the money.
I guess the other alternative would be to hire additional firefighters to cover vacancies that come up. I don't think it would be cost effective though once you add in insurance and stuff. Who knows maybe it would be better to have a bunch of extra firefighters around town.
I can't imagine that Derry is any different than other towns/cities its size with regards to replacing vacancies.
Anon 4:51,
I believe a more fair chart would list their earnings with the # of hours worked, including OT hours. This may present the whole picture a little better rather than trying to put an ADT spin on it.
Oh an another thing... can't we move on. Let's all get over this. The council has already decided to conduct a review of all Town departments. How about we all wait for the results and then make suggestions and recomendations based upon them. I know this may be hard for some the "haters" out there in Derry. Some of you out there might need a little R&R. Take a deep breath, wait for the studies to be completed, and go from there. Can't we all just :)
Anon 755,
Well said, I agree with you. Put all of this nonsense aside for now and wait for the results.
To 6:16pm...If your figure of 50 new teachers is correct I think we should turn our attention and concerns about rising taxes in the direction of the school board! 50 new employees, and the town has already stated 'no new hires'! What's wrong with this picture?Does anyone watch the school board meetings? Next they'll be asking for 'another' new school! It's coming people, it's just a matter of time
As far as the police morale issue goes - does Derry have a human resources department?
Derry should be doing exit interviews to find out why people are leaving, what could change, what worked, etc.
Companies generally handle this stuff internally through an HR Dept. - why can't Derry?
Exit interviews are great in that the employee has nothing to hide or lose on their way out and can speak freely.
"Disingenuous"? Wow.. that's a big word. We'll get to that in a minute...
You can post that information here, you can send it to the paper, heck, you could have it written across the sky if it makes you happy. There are no secrets there. That information is available for any and all to see. You're not proving anything to me or anyone else.
Now, read again so you understand. I challenged anyone here to find in the contract where it states that a Derry Firefighter makes an $80,000 a year SALARY and gets 12 weeks of VACATION. Hint, the important points there are in CAPITALS. Has a Derry Firefighter made $80,000 or even more than that? Certainly. What's his salary again? Right, not $80,000. So to make that kind of money that firefighter must have worked a great deal of overtime. To make that kind of money you're talking maybe 2,3,4 hundred hours of overtime? To go one step further, a Derry Firefighter who works an extra overtime shift beyond his regular duty cycle takes the first 6 hours of that extra shift as straight time with the remainder being overtime. Should that firefighter NOT be compensated for his time?
I guess I'll wait for the "vacation" argument...
Don't let me forget where we started. I find it interesting that we have not heard much in the last month or two about the DFD contract and now all of a sudden, Mr. Lund mysteriously pops up in the Derry news in defiance of a contract he knows nothing about. Or does he? As far as I know, those discussions are suppose to be non-public between the two negotiating committees. I surely would not find it strange or surprising if we heard from the town council about a vote on a DFD contract sometime soon in lihgt of all this.
To think that the timing of this latest round of "Let's hang the DFD" is purely coincidental would be.... "Disingenous".
OK 2:40. I'll use smaller words for you. No one gives a damn about the contract. We care about the end result, the impact on the taxpayers.
No one is suggesting that we "hang the DFD". Why would we do that? They provide us with fire protection. We are suggesting that the firefighter’s compensation should be in line with the market rate. W2 forms may simply be an indicator of something out of line.
You are talking at cross purposes with Mr. Lund. He speaks of total compensation and you talk about base salaries. How relevant is a base salary to the discussion? Shouldn't we talk about total compensation costs, payments to employees and payments for things like benefits? It all comes from taxpayer wallets.
Anon 7:32, didn't the Derry News used to post the top "100" highest earning employees ... Maybe they should look at doing that again.
What does posting the top 100 have anything to do with this. The Town has committed to conduct an independent review of all Town departments. Let them complete the reviews and we can go from there.
Here's an idea... how about the Derry News post the top 100 wage earning residents in all of Derry and they can pay double the amount in taxes because the can afford to. Or maybe, we post the top 100 largest familes with the most kids in the school district and they too can pay double on the school tax because they are using more than they pay for.
Why not pass a resolution to never acquire a private road again in Derry. The residents bought property knowing it was on a private road. Suck it up and deal with the consequences.
The list could go on and on.
I would like to see the 100 top assessed residential homes and the owners annual incomes published.
Lets see what portion of income goes to taxes paid to the town.
Why not just pay town employees based on what they pay in town taxes plus a few dollars extra for incidentals. :-)
I wouldn't mind seeing a breakdown of all of the town employees earnings provided that it was broken down by base salary, overtime, and benefits. I don't think that it would be fair to post all three lumped together. If an employee works 400 hours of overtime it should be listed as such so that the public doesn't think that the end figure is the actual salary.
poor derry taxpayer would you mind clarifying your statement:
I would like to see the 100 top assessed residential homes and the owners annual incomes published.
Lets see what portion of income goes to taxes paid to the town.
Are you saying you would like to see private citizens annual income,or public workers incomes published? I would have an issue for the private citizen numbers being published. What does that have to do with anything. I do not make very much money and I know my residence would not fall in the top 100, but I would have an issue with this. Again if you could clarify your statement so that I could better understand your intentions.
8:20 PM
its actually a fantasy question I proposed obviously not ethical or maybe even legal.
My intention would be to see how much of any Derry resident's income is being paid for real estate taxes.
I am alleging that many Derry residents are paying a disproportionate part of their income to town taxes.
Hopefully other citizens would have compassion and slow down the town's spending knowing what a burden it puts on taxpayers.
This also is a fantasy because most people just think of them selves.
This is how politicians get elected by giving allot of people a bone.
A quick post:
This webpage has the 10 deadliest jobs listed
http://www.cnbc.com/id/24131764
Look at where fire and police are in the 10 deadliest
Who ever said that Police and Fire were the deadliest jobs going? All ten are also private sector jobs and most are getting paid well for the risks they take.
Brian
I saw an interesting story in the UL today....town department heads giving of 'their'time for a Day of Caring'. Could you please tell me, were they giving of 'their own time' or was it on the $$ of the taxpayers?Here we see one of the top salaried personnel,the HR guy, pushing a rake.You take his salary and times that by a few hours and YOU tell me how did that benefit the taxpayers. People, don't always look to the FD. Someone asked about an HR Dept...well you're seeing it in action.How are you feeling now? I have a few leaves to rake over this side of town fellas.
I WENT TO THE TOWN HALL TODAY AND AGAIN OUR TOWN ADMINISTRATOR WAS NOT IN. CAN ANYONE TELL ME WHEN THIS MAN IS IN?
Quick post for Poor Derry Taxpayer..
If you want to sign up for any of those 10 deadliest jobs, I'm sure you'll get right in. If not...
Sign up for the 100th or 1000th deadliest ones, wherever the DPD or DFD fit in, and try one of those out.
No? Not for you? No problem. Let those guys take care of that stuff while you relax and make that 911 phone call when you need it. They will come no matter where their job is listed on the "Deadly Jobs" list.
I'm hoping, someday, that the DFD does a "Citizen Firefighter Day" where the citizens can go and get involved and experience what it is like to put on the gear, get on a limited supply of air, and be placed in a situation that the firefighters deal with on a fire call. Of course, it wouldn't be exactly like a real fire, but something as close as they can replicate without putting people's lives in danger. I think that would really open people's eyes to what these guys might face on a "normal" day of work. Something a little different than staring down the barrel of a TPS report.
If it happens, and again I hope someday they do it, I'm quite sure that you and many others who feel that way would be some of the first to get in line to experience it.
I find it annoying that the Town feels the need to post the "proposed" contracts on the web now, but doesn't list the salary for current vacancies they are trying to fill. They want to hire another health director but don't publish the position's salary. Some things in this community will never make sense...
BC: Can I assume that ALL contracts will be published on the town's website?
This was some info “Poor derry tax payer left out” again it is just more of the same old people causing trouble with mis-leading info. This person needs a hobby. Maybe he should go do a few ride a longs with the PD and FD.
This was the Head line of the web site that he had for people to view. Read the part that is underlined, that’s some important info.
“You might think you have a tough job, but chances are it can't come close to some of the deadliest
jobs in the US, where day in and day out there is a chance you might not make it out alive. According the the Bureau of Labor Statistics' most recent data, 5,703 lives were lost on the job in 2006, down from 5,734 the previous year. Click ahead to find out where the danger lies (Fatality rates are displayed in number of deaths per 100,000 workers and do not include governmental or military occupations)”. All Photos: AP
Here is some more info for the uneducated people out there. Courtesy of U.S. Fire Administration .
Already 88 Line of Duty Deaths as of 9/3/2008 for this year, but I am sure Poor Derry tax payer already new that as well.
“The 118 deaths in 2007 resulted from a total of 104 fatal incidents. There were 7 firefighter fatality incidents where 2 or more firefighters were killed in 2007, claiming a total of 21 firefighters’ lives”.
“On January 30th, two West Virginia firefighters were killed when a propane tank leak at a convenience store caused an explosion“.
Nature Number
Heart Attack 52
Internal Trauma 33
Asphyxiation 18
Burns 7
Crushed 3
CVA 2
Electrocution 1
Other 2
Total 118
“With the exception of 2001, which saw a dramatic increase in deaths because of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, 2007 was the deadliest year for law enforcement since 1989, according to preliminary data released jointly by the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund and Concerns of Police Survivors.
The report counted the deaths of 186 officers as of Dec. 26, up from 145 last year. Eighty-one died in traffic incidents, which the report said surpassed their record of 78 set in 2000. Shooting deaths increased from 52 to 69, a rise of about 33 percent. The average age of officers who died in 2007 was 39. Most were men and had served an average of about 11 years in law enforcement“.
2008 Line of Duty Deaths for Police officers.
Total Line of Duty Deaths: 85
9/11 related illness: 1
Assault: 1
Automobile accident: 30
Duty related illness: 1
Electrocuted: 1
Exposure to toxins: 1
Gunfire: 27
Gunfire (Accidental): 2
Heart attack: 2
Motorcycle accident: 4
Stabbed: 2
Struck by vehicle: 3
Vehicular assault: 10
By Month:
January: 14
February: 11
March: 5
April: 3
May: 9
June: 13
July: 7
August: 14
September: 9
By State:
Alabama: 2
Arizona: 1
Arkansas: 1
California: 6
Colorado: 1
Connecticut: 1
Florida: 6
Georgia: 5
Illinois: 1
Indiana: 1
Iowa: 1
Kentucky: 2
Louisiana: 3
Maryland: 2
Massachusetts: 1
Mississippi: 1
Missouri: 4
Montana: 1
Nevada: 1
New Jersey: 2
New Mexico: 1
New York: 5
North Carolina: 3
Ohio: 4
Oklahoma: 2
Pennsylvania: 2
Puerto Rico: 2
Railroad Police: 1
South Carolina: 3
Tennessee: 1
Texas: 7
Tribal Police: 1
U.S. Government: 4
Virgin Islands: 1
Virginia: 3
Washington: 1
Wisconsin: 1
Average tour: 11 years, 1 month
Average age: 39
By Gender:
Female: 11
Male: 74
I am sure you new this as well, poor derry tax payer. Get over it, you just seem jealous that your purpose in life wasn’t to be a Firefighter and or Police officer.
Thank you to all the people of this great town that continue to support and respect the Fire fighters and
Police officers in the Town of Derry.
anon 1:48 & 7:49
You must be the same person because who ever wrote those posts sounds like a person not happy with their job and blames others for not appreciating them.
There is no need to belittle me for not stepping up to becoming a fireman. I have no interest in it period. I do not care if it paid 500k a year, I still have no interest in it.
Now back to my position. I can appreciate what the dangers are for DFD DPD workers. They deserve to be paid what the job pays, no more, no less. They are not God-like, you realize.
I wonder how many truck drivers, roofers etc. were killed last year performing their jobs.
Its nice to know if I am hungry I can always call for a pizza delivery or go to a resturant. The resturant workers are just doing their job and being paid for it.
Looks like our Fire Dept. is going to need some more training - how to identify toy rockets from actual military hardware.
I imagine some of the kids on the Pinkerton Rocketry team could help them out!
The Chief must be a little red-faced today!
Picture what people would be writing if the Rotary Club got blown all the way to the rotary circle. I'd rather have someone do too much of something than do nothing.
I agree, better to err on the side of caution. Good call by Klauber and good job by our fireman & policeman.
Not saying he was wrong to handle the way he did - although I question why the actual bomb squad could't easily identify it as a toy rocket right away. Carting it off in their truck seems a bit overkill. I wonder if they actually then tried to blow it up too.
I suppose once they are out there they might as well use it as a traiing excercise!
I just feel bad for the poor kid in the neighborhood who has probably been looking for his lost rocket for days!!!
Its not ironic that the same three councilors asked for things, they are the three musketeers ! The only difference is that Mr. Carney is a democrat,and continues to vote against Labor. That is unfortunate as he aspires to be more involved in politics. He forgets thats that traditionally democrats support Labor. It has and will continue to be brought forward to the State democratic committee every time he does it..Sooner or later this practice will catch up with him.....hopefully sooner.
Anonymous, are you kidding! You can't be that short sighted.
I surpose that you would have stuck you head next to the device to make you untrained determination. Hope that you were not wrong.
You ALWAYS err on the side caution. I would expect nothing less from the properly trained & experienced emergency responders that we are fortunate to have in this town. Great job to everyone involved in this incident.
2:31 Mr. Carney was elected by voter to represent their best interests. A union did not elect him. He has a moral obligation to do what is best for his constituents. Sometime that will please unions, sometimes it will not. It’s called integrity. Would you prefer that he sell out the people who put their trust in him just to earn points with Democrat leaders?
Carney is going to do himself in. He hitched his political wagon to a gelding and a nag that are going to run him into the ground. Save yourself Brent!
9:37 Glad to see you are taking the high road and avoiding personal attacks, this speaks so well of you. You do such honor to those on your side of the debate. Please do not switch sides.
What Happened to Fair and Equal Treatment?
The argument for public employee unions for years has been that municipal, state and school employees didn’t earn pay equal to the private sector. That has been a particularly strong argument in support of the high-end benefits that often are the heart of a public employee union contract.
Times change.
These days, a municipal employee is likely to be making at least as much as a comparable worker in the private sector in their towns - not in the Boston market - and their benefits are an envy for many private sector employees.
We’ve argued before that public employers must take the current economic situation into account when they consider union contracts, and have no ethical choice but to realize that the taxpayers - many of them private sector workers, or downsized unemployed - are in no condition to pay high end salaries and benefits.
Nevertheless, the action of the Derry Town Council last week to bring its two firefighter union contracts to public debate raises serious questions about fair and equal treatment.
Should public union contracts be opened up to public debate? Why not? Should the Derry firefighters’ union contracts be the only ones subject to public debate? Absolutely not.
Sure looks like the firefighters are being singled out, when contracts have been approved by this same council for other public unions.
The council rightfully turned down a motion to put the contract to public vote in a special election. Voters elected the councilors to make the tough decisions. Approving or disapproving a union contract falls into that category.
In the next union negotiation cycle, bringing the contracts up for public debate is an interesting idea. We understand that in negotiations, the back-and-forth offers are often efforts to jockey for position, and rightfully belong behind closed doors. But when a contract is ready for union and municipal approval, we like the idea of bringing it up for public comment. It’s something all of our municipal bodies should consider.
Bottom line, however, is the Derry council has had the fire department under its thumb in recent months. The fire contract falls within the budget parameters set by the council. And it’s time for the council to vote.
Singling out the fire department for an extra layer of scrutiny sets a dangerous precedent - and perhaps a legal battle that would cost the taxpayers big bucks. All town unions should receive equal treatment, regardless of which department is involved. And we don’t see the fire department getting anything close to equal treatment right now.
Let me guess.....another overeaction right !!!!
Derry Wal-Mart evacuated, four treated
DERRY — A strong odor forced the evacuation of shoppers and employees from Wal-Mart on Crystal Avenue yesterday afternoon because of a possible propane leak, but no gas or other contamination was found.
Numerous people were led to the parking lot, including four who were evaluated by rescue workers after complaining of various symptoms, from headaches to feeling lightheaded. Although no one was taken to the hospital, Derry fire Battalion Chief Michael Doyle said they were told to let emergency crews know if their symptoms worsened.
Firefighters tested the air inside the store, but could not detect any gas or chemical hazards, Doyle said. Employees and shoppers were told to wait at the far end of the parking lot, but some stayed near the store and even smoked despite the potential for an explosion.
Londonderry firefighters responded to Derry's call for mutual aid about 3:50 p.m. Londonderry firefighters investigated the odor because Derry firefighters were responding to a report of smoke in a building on Walnut Hill Road. Doyle said that turned out to be a problem with a furnace.
Firefighters placed an aerial ladder on the store's roof to check for leaks. They also checked the heating system, pharmacy and the loading dock to verify no chemicals had been spilled or accidentally mixed, but were unable to identify the odor, Doyle said.
Londonderry sent an engine, a ladder truck and a shift commander to Wal-Mart. Windham also provided mutual aid. The incident was declared under control at 4:28 p.m.
Joyce Allard of Derry waited in her car while firefighters made sure the building was safe.
She was looking for a medicine in the pharmacy aisle when a floor clerk told her she had to leave.
"I was one item away from checking out, and one of the people on the floor said, 'Ma'am, we're evacuating the building because of a possible propane explosion.'"
As she sat in her car, Allard debated whether to go back in the store later to make her purchases or just leave.
My only question is why the Londonderry Dept had to respond and do the air testing.
Don't we have a large enough FD to respond to two events at once?
I see the part about smoke on Walnut Hill - but does the whole dept respond to something like that?
Isn't one of the arguments going on about Derry having a large FD?
If we can only cover one event at a time with all the firefighters we have in town that is concerning.
Anon 11:47
If you called 911 and reported a fire in your house, would you want one truck to show up, or all available units to respond?
Maybe the Town should make a list of addresses and residents that want the minimum response (like Coyle, Fairbanks, and Carney).
The addresses on the list get one truck, everyone else will receive available units to a reported building fire.
There are no fire departments in this state can handle two building fires at the same time without the use of mutual aid. (Mutual aid- calling in area departments to assist at the fire scene)
Is every fire call going to be a subject of this blog? More straw men. No one is debating the value of having a fire dept. The issue has been staffing levels and benefits. Let's not wander into second guessing what truck went where. We should stick to the issues. How much fire protection do we need, how much can we afford and are we getting the greatest benefit for our dollars.
By the way, the idea that the fire union is being singled out is bogus. Try telling a cop pulling you over that everyone else was also doing 85 mph in a 65 zone. In examining contracts (or pulling over speeders) you have to start somewhere and the fire contract being the biggest makes a great first place to start. If our administrator (or council) had been doing their jobs right all contracts would have gotten this level of scrutiny.
Anon 12:29
Are you saying that no previous Council or TA has done its job correctly?
Because no contracts have ever been scrutinized the way Coyle has requested.
Furthermore, lets eliminate the the TA and HR positions from the roster. That will save $250,000.
Apparently, some Councilors would rather micro-manage the Town and conduct all Town business as they see fit.
12:21
I will take one truck.
If I called 911 then must be safe and out of the house.
I just as soon have house burn to the ground, its easier to build a new house rather than piece a burned house back together..
anon 3:29 I'm suggesting that the present sorry state of affairs with regard to the Fire contract is in no way the fault of the fire union or the fire fighters. It is entirely the fault of previous councils (and perhaps this council) who either did not do their homework, did not give proper direction as to what analysis needed to be done, did not give proper direction to negotiators or accepted contracts that were not in the interests of the people who elected them.
If you view contract review as the province of the town administrator (don't want the council to micro manage) then the council should immediately terminate the administrator. I disagree with that perspective. If the Council should not review the terms of contracts then they should not be required to vote on the contracts. In that case you have turned the administrator into a very powerful unelected mayor.
If there were some regulations and oversights on Wall Street we wouldn't be in the mess we're in; or would that have been micromanaging?
The fair thing here would be to have ALL councilors grow a set and vote on this item as they have for every other contract.
Then, pass a rule or ordinance stating that all future contracts will be subject to public hearings and posting on the Town's website.
Singling out one department is the wrong way to conduct business.
The Police contract cost the Town just as much money and Coyle (who works at Londonderry PD with his wife) didn't even bat an eye at it.
Where and when will this all stop, or won't it? Are we then going to have public hearings on the "contracts" that pay our HR director in excess of $100,000? Are all Town agreements going to be subject to public hearings?
I beleive the general public has plenty of oppotunity to call or write to their councilors. The councilors gather all information and make an informed decision.
Now back to the fire contract. Does anyone actually think that the upcoming public hearing is going to sway the decision of the 7 councilors. Both sides have already determined how they will vote.
This is just another layer beauracracy and some political posturing. The ADT is trying to build its positions and drum up support for its 2009 candidates.
"The councilors gather all information and make an informed decision." What planet are you from?
In the next paragraph you admit that:
"Does anyone actually think that the upcoming public hearing is going to sway the decision of the 7 councilors. Both sides have already determined how they will vote."
So "gathering all information" does not include listening to the public?
10:11 "The Police contract cost the Town just as much money and Coyle (who works at Londonderry PD with his wife) didn't even bat an eye at it."
No, the personnel budget of the fire dept is about 20% larger than the police dept. And how is Mr. Coyle’s employment (much less his wife's) at all relevant to what we are discussing? Character assassination by innuendo… very classy.
"The ADT is trying to build its positions and drum up support for its 2009 candidates." Really? Who would they be? Glad to see that they are planning ahead. If this doesn't work you can try suggesting that they are planning for the 2010 elections or maybe 2011. Can you say paranoia? (I understand your fears, can you imagine if the ADT got a majority and showed the voters what competent management looked like? There would be no going back and years of backroom deals would be undone.)
10:11 AM
BINGO! I'm glad someone can see through this debacle! The T.C. meeting is just going to be a lot of political posturing..and Doug Newell will present himself once again. We saw it last election season scarring the elderly, now he's focusing on the F.D.(and I'm not a rocket scientists to figure that one out)
You might be onto something when it comes to the HR fella. $100,000 and what has he done for us lately?
Could also say the same about the Business Development Coordinator!
Oh I can hear it now...the economy has taken a turn for the worse. You talk about job security with the F.D.? Take a look at the HR and B.D.C!!
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